OK everyone, I am starting early!
I have a question for you, and that is what is the craziest thing you have ever done on horse back?
Was there alcohol involved?
Were you an adult and knew better at the time or are you going to claim the ignorance is bliss defense?
Was it during the day or was it during the night?
If you were under age, did your parents ever find out?
Were your friends with you?
Was it legal?
OK, I know that is more than one question, but enquiring minds want to know!
Update on the Morgan story
14 years ago
279 comments:
1 – 200 of 279 Newer› Newest»Craziest thing I've ever SEEN: My 2 younger sisters riding double on Appy mare trail riding. (they are twins) Decided to take trail that's more challenging, go down hill, off comes saddle, twins AND bridle OVER the appy's shoulders. Appy stands thereNEKED
I train all my horses to neckrein so I can scoop crap with the other hand. My horses all chase dungbeetles and can cut one out of the herd with ease.
OMG turd burgular..TFF! Just to clarify, the appy incident happened when were teenagers, no one hurt, and mare was resaddled without trouble. (no alcohol involved)
Drunk Polo in college. Losing your inhibitions to whisky sure made it easier to really lean down towards the ball at a full tilt gallop. I'm surprised no one fell off!
Trying to post on hte blog while holdind a twin its lunacy
An arena.
An industrial sprinkler.
Four teenagers.
No saddles.
We played chicken.
Oh come on Johnie...we all did it when we were grooms and assistant trainers....ride the "GOOD" show horses when the BNT was out of town!
Yes there was usually alcohol involved.
Just reminenced about this with a friend the other day....her daughter was shocked, said she (mom) would kill her current assistant if she did what we did!!
Ha Ha Ha....what fun the good ol' groom/assistant days!!
A friend and I rode into "town" and rode our horses on University property. We went up an ungodly amount of steps to get to a frat house and then realized we couldn't get the horses down the steps. There was no alcohol involved but I sure could have used some when we got out of that mess!!
JstPam
;). And here I was thinking I never anything like what JR was asking.
And saw your post.lol
I was at a small horse show with a few clients when I lived in Texas.
We were on our last class which was a reining class. For the entire show we had been partying and having a great time.
By the time the reining class had come up, well, we were shitfaced!
I took the horse in the class and the owners, who had been drinking quite a bit went up into the stands to watch me go. They were standing behind the videographer because they were having the class taped, and that was the best view in this particular arena.
I enter the arena, went to the center and stopped. I had a hard time keeping the stupid smile off of my face. The horse was at the top of his game at that point, but it sure did not show in the figure whatever they were. I can only say for certain that they were not quality figure eights.
From there, I went and did my first run down, great stop, a little jerky though. Roll back if that is what you could call it. Second run down, whoops, went past the cone, stop! A little jerkier than the first. Rollback, wait a minute, was I supposed to do that?
Third rundown. Oh what the hell, why stop in the middle when you can stop anywhere!
Time for Spins and the backup!
The horse spun to the right and I wobbled to the left, the horse spun to the left and I wobbled to the right. Actually more like teetering both directions.
The back up, well. I could not stop laughing at the thought of getting a ticket for Reining Under the Influence!
For a few months afterwards, the owners of the horse wanted me to watch the video, I refused for a while. But finally caved!
It was Bad! I was grinning the drunken grin the whole time!
When I was spinning the horse, the gal doing the video finally said "He is so drunk!"
You could here my clients laughing as hard as they could and the husband finally said, "No Shit!" And started laughing his ass off again.
The messed up thing about that go was that I never went off pattern, just changed the shape of the figure 8s.
Hmmm. Never any alcohol involved. No illegal substances of any kind, either. But there was some stuff in my younger days I have worked hard to forget. LOL!
I was in the music industry for quite a while in my late teens/early 20's. Sometimes I helped supply horses for music videos. That got pretty wild. Don't ask. :P
I had a bit of a stupid moment and fractured my sacrum, had about 2 weeks to heal before a clinic I had signed up for and paid really good money for came due. It was a 2 dayer. Chug two beers pop a Vicodin and I am ready to rock. Now this was on Saint Spunky and we did rock. Frank Madden loved Spunky.
I do Foxhunt, so there is alcohol involved. Start with the stirrup cup and sip all day long, end up tailgating. Good times.
Totally sober. Laser Tag on Clam Beach. Very very fun. I am the all time champion oh by the way. I rode Shad, my little red Ferrari. CMK bred Arab 14.2h and very quick and handy.
The first time I got 'hit' and that vest thing went off 'bloop bloop bloop' we did catch some air. It might have been prudent to acustom him to the sound before playing. It was like he figured out the game, and would position me to get a hit on someone, and keep us from getting hit. Very cool little horse.
Working for a dude ranch after highschool.
Saturday night off.
Whisky and beer. (gotta love that whisky and beer)
Stumbling through a 750 acre pasture in search of broke horses in a herd of 200.
With halters and lead ropes.
Through the crick.
Caught a group.
Rode a little while (who knows how long for sure).
Some of us fell off, some of us got bucked off - all in about a 15 second time period.
The horses left.
We couldn't find them.
Going to bed at 3:30am and getting up at 4:45am.
To go catch the same horses.
To TAKE OFF the halters and leadropes still attached.
So as not to be fired by 6:00am (feeding time).
I was 18, so legally an adult but I claim too stupid to know any better AND too young to care.
We did get all the halters and lead ropes off.
BUT our jeans gave us away.
Nobody got fired.
Drunk, probaby riding a horse into Mr Luckys in 1982 I think. Not one of my shining moments.
Oh Geez...So MANY crazy times I'm now trying to live down.
Drunken polo. Oh yeah - did that. Kinda like drunk pool - if you can maintain that "sweet" spot of slightly buzzed but not too much you're great, but go a bit too far and things get ugly fast!
I think probably the craziest extended thing I ever did on horseback was a ride in Australia in the Snowy Mtns with the family who supplied the horses for the Man From Snowy River movies...
My Australian girlfriend and I signed up for an overnight "trail ride" into the mountains. About 40 people on this ride. About 30 of them thought they were real hot shit. My girlfriend and I were the only ones who could actually ride, other than the hands. A bunch of crazy drunk Australians who all think they can really tear it up on horseback and are definitely going to talk a lot of shit about it. You get the picture.
Started by putting is in a paddock, lining us up, and yelling. The horses all take off, people falling off, horses bucking, whoever makes it across in okay form goes into small "fast" groups. We spend most of the day at breakneck speeds, through the forest, jumping, running down hills and through rivers, Omak stampede style. I literally saw people get taken off by tree branches (duck you idiot! oops, too late), horses refusing to jump logs - mostly because the idiots didn't really know how to ride; and riders going headfirst over into piles of mud. It was insane. I don't know if they are still doing those crazy rides - I remember at the time (I was much younger and naive) thinking wowee I can't imagine anybody ever doing this is the states, seems like somebody could get hurt! I was so sore after 2 days of this that I had to lie flat on my back in the backseat of the car on the way home. But boy, was it ever fun! (Especially, of course, cuz they gave the "yank" a whole bunch of shit - cheeky Aussies - but I kicked their ass in the traditional "horse race" - again, because those yahoos didn't know how to ride and the race involved a tight turn, all the other riders had no control of horses so way wide. I won by a mile only beating my girlfriend cuz my brumby was a bit faster).
Yah, that was pretty crazy. Hey wait a minute...JR - are you trolling for stupid horse owner stories for FHOTD????
Foxhunting here in the lovely state of Pa.is never done without a hearty drink usually in personal flasks before "going afield" with the hounds. Each local hunt has their preferred beverage of choice.
Many refer to it as the "Cup of Courage". "Pickering Punch" is my personal favorite.The more you drink the smaller the fences,timbers and drop jumps get!Keep in mind during the 70's and 80's we also had "Disco Dust" which made for much faster hunting times and lots more drinking to take the edge off.
Decades later we still toast before the hunt begins but now our drug of choice is Aleves,Ibuprophins or whatever keeps us riding.I think we are alot smarter these days!
No doubt, we'll get outed on FHOTD. lol
JstPam said...
Oh come on Johnie...we all did it when we were grooms and assistant trainers....ride the "GOOD" show horses when the BNT was out of town!
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Of course we rode the good ones.
Actually the last year that the Scottsdale show was at Paradise park.
Me and a few of the grooms from Warrens Arabians went to the show office on the Saturday night before the Championships and 'borrowed' the stewards golf cart and drove all over the show grounds. Unraveling one of grooms David Bowie collection on cassette tapes as we drove. We had been partying some and it had been raining all week.
We decided that it would be a good idea to take the golf cart and park it in the judges gazebo, and on our way into the arena, we sank the damn thing in the mud.
We woke up the next morning to see the tractor trying to get the golf cart out of the arena and there was cassette tape everywhere!
Hell, I was a bit of a trouble maker back then~
Too much Sambuca , mountain ride bog , nuff said!
fernvalley01 said...
Too much Sambuca , mountain ride bog , nuff said!
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never had Sambuca, but I do like OOZO however spell it
I went on a large horse camping and trail ride in the Daniel Boone National Forest area in Kentucky.Around the campfire one evening I was offered some "White Lightning" aka Grain Distilled Alcohol that was probably a protoptype for rocket fuel or at least Nascar.Never having it before I was happy to partake and I have never been so shit faced drunk in my life!! I was up close and personal with the old saying "Shit or Go Blind!I have no idea how I was able to ride the next morning.
I like Ouzo. But hey, I'm part Greek. Probably genetic.
About ages 10 to 14 I rode every summer, every day, with my two horsey gal friends. We all lived within a mile of each other, great place to ride horses (and still is, actually). We would leave in the morning, cheap tack in tow, helmets what's a helmet?, and be gone all day. Show up at somebody's house to scrounge lunch. We did all sorts of crazy stuff. Whenever one of the farmers (our fathers, uncles and cousins), would take a "trial" patch of chop out of the silage corn field, well that was a PERFECT race track. And bales of hay - those were for jumping!
I also remember riding Nugget, the very head-shy Welsh pony, from friend Marlene's house up on the hill, about a mile home, with no saddle or bridle. Nothing. I would reach down and wave my hand in front of her right eye and she would go left, opposite to go right. To stop, well I reached up and pulled her forelock! Worked kinda sorta okay. (NHers eat your heart out!).
If you like Ouzo, you should try Metaxa 7 star...YUM!!
That reminds me the Denver Greek Festival is cominig up soon!!
IB gelding, couple cans of Coors', bareback in the park across the street from facility. Loping along, tree ahead, neck rein right, horse goes left, I go over his shoulder, land on my feet, beer can in hand- never spilled a drop!
Finish/chug beer & hop back on. Lope off to make a lap around park, heading towards facility horse gets strong starts to race off. Get horse turned and look down to see giant metal storm drain in front of horse in full gallop. Reach for roached and non existant mane as horse gathers and takes a flying leap. Upon returning to group of friends, dismount quickly and ask for another beer! Lean on horse so as to hide shaky legs.
I also remember daring my friend Marlene to do a backwards leapfrog onto the back of her Shetland pony Billy. (Marlene was the athletic one of the bunch, I never did get the hang of the bareback jump on.).
She did it. And Billy of course took advantage of the situation and took off - with Marlene sitting on him backwards of course! LMAO!
And riding along the edge of a VERY high up oceanside bluff trail. On a blind-in-one-eye Welsh/QT pony (who I have since been educated was a tried and true cremello - I thought he was, wait for it...WHITE). He would spend the whole time dancing and craning his head around to see/not see the huge drop off which apparently freaked the crap out of him. Which I at the time found just very annoying. Not terrifying. Which is now how I feel when I remember it!
It is amazing that when get older and a crazy night consists of blogging about days when we were younger and a little nuts, and then we are in bed by 9:30 pm on a Friday!
I haz a new pony coming on Sunday.
Why? I ask myself this a lot.
Becuz hez a nice one. And because I am moving 3 out.
3yr old OTTB sound gelding. I will make a fortune just exhibiting him as a rare and almost unknown to man creature.
4 white socks and a little thumbprint of a star. Ahhhh...chrome to clean, clip, and polish.
I needed something to sit on at a few shows this season.
And he isn't red. I can't even get a red TB. No red for me. That is so sad.*sigh*
You all go to bed very early for party people.lol
JR said -
"It is amazing that when get older and a crazy night consists of blogging about days when we were younger and a little nuts, and then we are in bed by 9:30 pm on a Friday!"
Yep. You said it. And the only reason I am still up - cuz the 3 year old WON'T GO TO SLEEP! And since I have to get up at 4:30 tomorrow for market, I'm thinking I'll just stay up...
On the other hand, since having children, I know how amazingly well I can function on a 3 hour power snooze! So maybe I'll call it a night.
Ya know what PF
I usually only get a few hours sleep anyway. I already seem to have gotten that foe the night.
Boys woke me up this am @0430... spent the noc fishing @ the dam. How's that for wild & crazy?! hehehe
JohnieRotten wrote:
It is amazing that when get older and a crazy night consists of blogging about days when we were younger and a little nuts, and then we are in bed by 9:30 pm on a Friday!
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LOL!! No kidding........
It IS pretty pathetic, isn't it? ;P
Dena wrote:
You all go to bed very early for party people.lol
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Those of us who train horses for a living are generally too tired out after working and riding horses all day to party all night. ;)
JohnieRotten wrote:
I usually only get a few hours sleep anyway. I already seem to have gotten that foe the night.
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Yeah, but you have an excuse. Babies tend to do that to ya. :)
Yea JR, you have 2 good excuses, training horses all day and twins.
My baby is 22 and just moved to Richmond and I only have 3 rideable horses so what's my excuse? Oh, I have one, I am now taking care of 15 Alpacas as well as the 4 horses, can I count that as an excuse? Please, Please!!
The polo farm I groomed at my last year of college was fondly known as DUI Ranch. The last weekend of the season was the big tournament and there were three 4-wheeler/mule/golf cart accidents in two days. The first one was when two boys were chasing a loose horse after dark or a 4 wheeler. I was left on a 4 wheeler in the middle of a polo field by myself with a smashed cake and a beer. I couldn't get the damn thing started to go get (real) help! The boys saw the fence at the last second, turned hard left, and the boy on the back flew off to the right, went through the fence and broke his hand. The horse was later found in its stall with minor cuts. The next accident I wasn't there for but it involved golf cart polo and flipping over at low speed. The third accident was two guys, my girlfriend, and myself in the mule being driven by a british guy. I couldn't tell he was drunk because of his accent, I just thought he was british!!! Well, he hauled ass down a field, realized he was going the wrong way and spun it around and rolled it. Everyone was fine, but the tracks in the field were priceless. We were on two wheels for the whole turn!
When I was in 4-H in high school, we had a fundraiser for our club. She went to the fairgrounds and SLEPT on our horses in their stalls. I turned backward and laid my head on her butt. The only time I had a problem was when she switched which leg was resting. I came off more than once. But we raise a BUNCH of money for the club.
I once played wild donkey polo in Mexico. This consists of beer, wild burros herded into a coral, a soccer ball, some clubs and two goals. Hilarity ensued. Lots of bruising. Poor donkeys.
When we were kids we were always sneaking out to our local riding stable at night and climbing on our favorite horses with nothing on them. This always ended with a ride with the herd(20 horses or more)at a run back to the barn. Now I don't even ride with one horse lose, and if I ride bareback I definitely have a bridle. No parents knew, no alcohol involved just a lot of stupid!
STFS I call Bullshit. Going to bed early doesn't have a damn thing to do with training horses for a living.
It has to do with being old!!!
And sometimes too broke to have other plans.
Too tired is usually the least of the worries that come with this occupation/life choice.lol
Dena- here, here. Agreed! I'm *lucky* if I get to ride more than a horse or two during the week. Usually I *get* to climb on two or three on the weekends.
JR gets to ride far more that I do, yet I'm usually the first one out as soon as I am horizontal or my head hits the pillow, whichever comes first... He's got a few years on me so I'm not sure age is to blame either.
SFTS- if training horses and riding all day is so exhausting, why, pray tell, was I able to work horses all day and party all night, coming in to barn meeting still wearing 'clubbing clothes' from the nights adventures- to feed and start the day over again, and now when riding is a rarity, by 8pm the girls are in bed and I'm not far behind them?
Okay, I thought that was pretty much every horse persons youth. Work horses all day, go to the clubs at night. Now...I just work and sleep.
Used to match race horses out at Rawhide for extra money. Gallop horses at Turf Paradise for extra money. Seemed like back then energy was limitless. Now, not so much. lol
HP
For me it was work and then off to Luckys or Handle bar Js. Every night!
And then back off to work in the morning walking to the barn naked a duststorm uphill! Bothways!
Mr. Lucky's, Handlebar J's, Graham's, Cowboys, then Rockin' Rodeo, Rawhide in Scottsdale and the Chandler Rawhide Stockyards, Arena and Auction...
Then there was the desert parties with bonfires the size of a small house. Tubin' the salt, cliff jumping and diving off blue point bridge...
The Payson rodeo in August, Whiskey Row on the 4th of July in Prescott, Parada del Sol.
Plenty of hell to be raised.
Arizona was a good place to be young and horsey. lol
Yep, I walked out to the North pasture to put some fly repellent on the tenents there.
Walked back and decided I needed a nap before crossing the street to do those.
Oh, to have the energy of my misspent youth.lol
Course, when you take the time to do it right, you don't have to plan for those extra hours of longeing to wear them down. Or, is it to condition? (memory is going too)
Or, the time it takes to put on and adjust all that trainer tack that corrects the problem for you. Until you release their head.
I know I am being bitchy but when is everyone going to figure out that all that crap isn't any different than the NH line?
Marketed towards the beginner do it yourselfers at home?
Those of us "who train for a living" ought to know that draw reins are for slackers.
Don't own a pair and I never have.;)
Being a good trainer involves consistency. Being a great trainer means being Gifted. The end result will make the differentiation all by itself.
Being a good horseman means not going against your better judgement to train for trends in showing.
A good horseman does what they believe best for the horse.
And sometimes, that means snubbing them, and flipping them, and whatever else may prove necessary to lay the pathways for respect NECESSARY to create a good and safe service animal.
Anyone else never seen a 1200lb. pet?
Oh but Lil Snookywookieumms doesn't like to stand still tied. And isn't it cute when she rears like that? Quick grab the camera and the bag of treats!
I am not picking with you STFS but we all bring something to the picture. We all have something to offer. Be it good or bad.
But at the end of the day it is the horse(s) we have trained that are grading our papers.
And people being what they are it is an absolute given that no one else is getting our respective clients.
Please feel free to resume with the regularly scheduled broadcast.
Awww...crap. I crossed the line to snark didn't I?
I just found over time that most of the stuff (equipment) that was supposed to make it easier for me, caused me more work in the end.
yeah, I have drawreins. Not sure where they are...it's a rope a tied a knot in with a buckle in loop. I'm sure I have them somewhere. Will I use them again..possibly. Depends on what I come up against.
I have a running martingale somewhere too, and german martingales. These things have a place, yes. But they are not to replace good training.
HP I am not against using equipment.
I am against shortcut equipment.
And having it presented as "trainer necessity gear".
We all do it different to some extent and hopefully arrive at a good place.
I have ridden some game horses that did not run for crap when you took off the tie down. Or, it broke midpattern.lol
I don't run in tiedowns. I've seen them break on runs. 360's in the air are not my idea of a good time. I don't like that the horse starts leaning on them. Other people like the fact that they do. I guess it's preference.
Dena wrote:
STFS I call Bullshit. Going to bed early doesn't have a damn thing to do with training horses for a living.
It has to do with being old!!!
And sometimes too broke to have other plans.
Too tired is usually the least of the worries that come with this occupation/life choice.lol
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It does when you're my age and you've been doing so for 30 years, after having gotten fairly beat up for a lot of those years. You'll get here someday. :P
Getting old was never my problem. LOL It's the HURTING that comes along with aging that I find unacceptable.
When I was a young pup starting out, I could work horses from 5 AM til 5 PM, jump in the shower and head to the nightclubs in L.A. Did it for a long time, too...
Parenthood and recognizing that I'm not 20 anymore was a stark realization. ;)
Cut-N-Jump wrote:
I'm *lucky* if I get to ride more than a horse or two during the week. Usually I *get* to climb on two or three on the weekends.
JR gets to ride far more that I do, yet I'm usually the first one out as soon as I am horizontal or my head hits the pillow, whichever comes first... He's got a few years on me so I'm not sure age is to blame either.
SFTS- if training horses and riding all day is so exhausting, why, pray tell, was I able to work horses all day and party all night, coming in to barn meeting still wearing 'clubbing clothes' from the nights adventures- to feed and start the day over again, and now when riding is a rarity, by 8pm the girls are in bed and I'm not far behind them?
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LOL...I just essentially said the same in my response to Dena. It's the old age, kiddo. :P Face it, we're NOT as young as we were 20 years ago!
But you've got more excuses, too, than I do ~ parenting two babies is a lot more exhausting than one teenager, and that commute/stressful job have got to add into the equation. If there's one thing about my job, it's the freedom from the stress of an office job. I wouldn't handle that very well. :)
horspoor wrote:
Okay, I thought that was pretty much every horse persons youth. Work horses all day, go to the clubs at night. Now...I just work and sleep.
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*Raises Hand* LOL!
Dena wrote:
Course, when you take the time to do it right, you don't have to plan for those extra hours of longeing to wear them down. Or, is it to condition? (memory is going too)
Or, the time it takes to put on and adjust all that trainer tack that corrects the problem for you. Until you release their head.
I know I am being bitchy but when is everyone going to figure out that all that crap isn't any different than the NH line?
Marketed towards the beginner do it yourselfers at home?
Those of us "who train for a living" ought to know that draw reins are for slackers.
Don't own a pair and I never have.;)
Being a good trainer involves consistency. Being a great trainer means being Gifted. The end result will make the differentiation all by itself.
Being a good horseman means not going against your better judgement to train for trends in showing.
A good horseman does what they believe best for the horse.
And sometimes, that means snubbing them, and flipping them, and whatever else may prove necessary to lay the pathways for respect NECESSARY to create a good and safe service animal.
Anyone else never seen a 1200lb. pet?
Oh but Lil Snookywookieumms doesn't like to stand still tied. And isn't it cute when she rears like that? Quick grab the camera and the bag of treats!
I am not picking with you STFS but we all bring something to the picture. We all have something to offer. Be it good or bad.
But at the end of the day it is the horse(s) we have trained that are grading our papers.
And people being what they are it is an absolute given that no one else is getting our respective clients.
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LOL...I'll be sure to tell, Hell, just about everyone competing at the PtHA World this week and at AHA Nationals in October that they're all slackers. And that they're not good horsemen, because we ALL know that in order to have good horses and win on the highest levels of competition you've GOT to be "training for the trends" as opposed to having those good horses who do well because they're nice, athletic and correct animals. *eyeroll*
horspoor wrote:
I just found over time that most of the stuff (equipment) that was supposed to make it easier for me, caused me more work in the end.
yeah, I have drawreins. Not sure where they are...it's a rope a tied a knot in with a buckle in loop. I'm sure I have them somewhere. Will I use them again..possibly. Depends on what I come up against.
I have a running martingale somewhere too, and german martingales. These things have a place, yes. But they are not to replace good training.
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Very well said!
You slacker, you...LOL :P
Dena wrote:
I am not against using equipment.
I am against shortcut equipment.
And having it presented as "trainer necessity gear".
We all do it different to some extent and hopefully arrive at a good place.
I have ridden some game horses that did not run for crap when you took off the tie down. Or, it broke midpattern.lol
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See, I KNEW there was something more to it. LOL!
Don't use tiedowns, never have, never will. I don't own any. I also don't have any correction bits, any hugely long shanked bits, any tom thumb's or any mechanical hackamores, either. I won't allow that sort of shit in my tack room.
STFS I have rode some. Not trained them. Not created the problem.
Never bought one of those either.lol
And please do tell those at the top level of competition in some disciplines I think they are consummate sell outs.
I am sure they won't care what some nobody like me thinks.
Just as, I am unimpressed enough by them to not care.
Neither, do I suffer from any type of unfulfilled desire to be them.
I moved to another aspect because I firmly believe that there are two places a horses nose should never be put on purpose while under saddle. The ground and touching his chest.
And I also firmly believe that my finger does not belong up ANY horses ass. Ginger or no.
It isn't sour grapes. It is contempt for what a few have caused the majority to do.
Dena said:
I moved to another aspect because I firmly believe that there are two places a horses nose should never be put on purpose while under saddle. The ground and touching his chest.
__________________
I will totally agree with you about the nose on the ground and the nose to the chest.
But, I do like my horses soft enough, that if I take hold of their face, they will out their nose to their chest if I ask them to!
Dena wrote:
STFS I have rode some. Not trained them. Not created the problem.
Never bought one of those either.lol
And please do tell those at the top level of competition in some disciplines I think they are consummate sell outs.
I am sure they won't care what some nobody like me thinks.
Just as, I am unimpressed enough by them to not care.
Neither, do I suffer from any type of unfulfilled desire to be them.
I moved to another aspect because I firmly believe that there are two places a horses nose should never be put on purpose while under saddle. The ground and touching his chest.
And I also firmly believe that my finger does not belong up ANY horses ass. Ginger or no.
It isn't sour grapes. It is contempt for what a few have caused the majority to do.
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Funny, I don't ride my horses, even my WP horses, with their noses on the ground or on their chests. LOL And they do well in the show ring. Imagine that!
The rest of your comments (and no, I don't think you reach the lofty level of snarkiness you aspire to)? Methinks you need to get out more. ;)
That is all.
JohnieRotten wrote:
I will totally agree with you about the nose on the ground and the nose to the chest.
But, I do like my horses soft enough, that if I take hold of their face, they will out their nose to their chest if I ask them to!
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Agreed 100%!
I do not disagree with that JR. I am just so tired of if a little is good a lot more is better.
I don't go to the exhibitions/Big Shows because I do not enjoy watching most of it.
You can forgive a lot at a fun show as not knowing better.
When you watch the big names break all the rules and win? It gets old...
I do agree with you Dena
Dena wrote:
I am just so tired of if a little is good a lot more is better.
I don't go to the exhibitions/Big Shows because I do not enjoy watching most of it.
You can forgive a lot at a fun show as not knowing better.
When you watch the big names break all the rules and win? It gets old...
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Can't disagree about watching folks break the rules and still win...and it doesn't have to be a big name, it doesn't even have to be a big show.
However, I'd rather set a better example, so folks know there are still those of us who play by the rules, who train horses right, who are honest AND who can still get out there and kick some ass. :)
STFS you do realize that many types of martingales are just the english version of a tiedown?
I build horses for independent performance sports. And yes, the ability to naturally move correctly, be athletic, and be nice enough to work with and around without taking your life in your hands is both a beginning requirement and an end goal around here.
I don't want to see anything winging unless it is Pegasus.
And snark to me is simply being pissy AND bitchy.
I don't dislike you. In fact, the opposite is true. But, I do sometimes wonder why any of the rest of us are even here?
Because you have done it all and continue to do it better than we ever could. At least, that is how it sometimes seems to come across.
As you have never once that I am aware of asked anothers opinion with regard to anything about training as though you did not already have the only correct answer.
I mean really where did I get that little pearl of wisdom about professional courtesy which just happens to be a rule in the world you seem so driven to succeed in?
Oh yeah, the AHA rulebook.
FCS have you never had a question about how to handle a particular horse? Or, learning something new?
Or, do you believe that the trainer police will violate you for not knowing EVERYTHING and clients will take their horses and run?
Neurosurgeons consult with other professionals why the hell can't a horse trainer?
For crying out loud, Dena. Yeah, you do seem a little bit pissy and bitchy lately. Maybe there's something wrong that you're bringing over to your "blog self"?
There is a difference between a Western martingale (similar to the "training forks" ~ hate 'em) and an English or as we call them, "Arabian" martingale. I only use the latter. I'm well aware of a standing martingale, which would look to the novice similar to a tie down. But pretty vastly different in scope and purpose. I could explain it........but I think I'd be wasting my breath on someone who's not interested in learning.
>>> "Because you have done it all and continue to do it better than we ever could. At least, that is how it sometimes seems to come across.
As you have never once that I am aware of asked anothers opinion with regard to anything about training as though you did not already have the only correct answer." <<<
Are you sierr1a?
Seriously, Dena. One-upmanship and pissy-ness where I'm concerned seems to be a major competition for you lately. I'm not sure what triggered it, but it's getting tiresome.
I've been around a looong time. Yes, I've done a LOT. Just as JR has, and any of a number of other trainers who frequent the FHOTD blog. Most of the time we've got a darn good dialogue going on. Until you show up lately. Stirring shit.
LOL...I had to laugh at the little dig about AHA ACS rules. I posted them verbatim to you Dena, and you ignored it. Wasn't convenient for your ranting against me. Whatever.
When I have a question about how to handle a particular horse, or how to solve a problem, or how best to conquer anything related to a horse I've got (and of course, those DO come up) I go to those professionals I admire, trust and value. Did it ever occur to you that those people just might not post to internet forums or blogs?? I consult with my fellow professionals on a regular basis. It might just NOT be on an internet forum or blog where you can see it. Is that okay with you?
Before you set off again, I am certainly not saying that I don't value JR's opinion or admire his methods and his horses. Because I most certainly do, and that is the entire reason I took him up on his invitation to post here. This blog is what, barely over a week old?? There are how many (or few, as it were) posts here thus far?? I have NO doubt that there will be many an occasion in the future which I will bounce ideas off JR, ask for his opinion, give him a "what would JR do" scenario and so forth. Would that begin to satisfy you, Dena? Or should I be asking your permission?
Finally, I don't know about you, but I learn something new about horses and the horse world every single day. I learn from the horses, mostly, because they are indeed the best teachers.
Geeze Dena, this is a paarty. I'm even up late tonight, went to local track, watched Figure 8 racing, outlaw modifieds, awesome & only horses are under the hoods.
Guess I should mention it's 0038 here, Not 2139..stuck on eastern time here in Indiana. (thanks to Mitch Daniels we had to jump on the daylight savings time bandwagon, the fucker) Oh and long live snark & south park humor lest we take ourselves 2seriously
windingwinds wrote:
Geeze Dena, this is a paarty. I'm even up late tonight, went to local track, watched Figure 8 racing, outlaw modifieds, awesome & only horses are under the hoods.
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Woohoo, not much better than Saturday night dirt track racing!!
Except, well, being at a Cup race...or a horse show. LOL!
Gotta love the Figure 8's. Insanity. Especially with the really crazy guys that just_don't_lift...
While I'd love someday to go run a Street Stock or Super Street Camaro at our local dirt track, Figure 8's is something I NEVER have had a desire to do. I'd rather be in the Grandstands watching that!! ;)
STFS I concede to the greater professional bullshitter.;)
Poor, pitiful, pathetic novice that I am.:P
Good thing I have your "example" to draw on.LOL
Allrighty ladies. It's not often women get in a pissing contest.
From what I've read the styles are very different. However, you both seem to have the horses' best interests at heart.
Well it was paved track :-( But still nice to watch, even hubby whom would love a racecar says the figure 8 drivers ARE NUTS. There are horse tracks down south of us, hope to go watch the trotters later this summer.
Dena wrote:
STFS I concede to the greater professional bullshitter.;)
Poor, pitiful, pathetic novice that I am.:P
Good thing I have your "example" to draw on.LOL
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LOL...I get it, it's a Dena pity party!
*eyeroll*
Hmmm...I didn't take it that way at all SFTS. But them I'm notably obtuse.
horspoor wrote:
Allrighty ladies. It's not often women get in a pissing contest.
From what I've read the styles are very different. However, you both seem to have the horses' best interests at heart.
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I can about guarantee you, in a pissing contest, Dena would win hands down!
But yes, here the horses' best interests are ALWAYS at heart. :)
Speaking of which, it's time for 10 o'clock horsey check (tonight is also carrot and apple feeding night, LOL, yep, they're spoiled and all get their special goodie bucket on Saturday nights).
So I've been trying to go through a midlife crisis cause that's expected ya know, been thinking bout getting a tattoo. What tattoo does everyone else have/want? I have several ideas, just can't make final decision.
I'm not into tatoos. If it's a midlife crisis...get a henna one that says "Forever". lol It will pass.
windingwinds wrote:
Well it was paved track :-( But still nice to watch, even hubby whom would love a racecar says the figure 8 drivers ARE NUTS. There are horse tracks down south of us, hope to go watch the trotters later this summer.
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We have a couple of paved tracks not far away, including two Cup tracks in fairly close proximity (Fontana and Las Vegas). There is the short track at the Orange Show in San Bernardino that was paved a few years back. It's not nearly as much fun to watch races now that it's on asphalt. Then there's the Irwindale Speedway. AWESOME track. Fast and smooth. But I'd just rather go to the local Fairgrounds dirt track.
My hubby is working on engineering a new off road go-kart. He says he's going to build us two, that look identical (as he threatens to give HIS more horsepower, LOL) in order to test the design and such. I told him when I finally get my SS car he can be my crew chief. He didn't appreciate that! Can you imagine? ;)
horspoor wrote:
Hmmm...I didn't take it that way at all SFTS. But them I'm notably obtuse.
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No worries. I'm over it. :)
I am wanting to get a face of a Siberian Husky with the blue eyes or a Celtic stag as a tatoo
Hehe I had a Henna tribal sun on my shoulder 2 weeks ago, really neat. It's gone now though. And I worked in geriatrics 3 yrs so I do know what happens to tattoos as we age. (Please NO more naked people! I've met my quota, I swear it!)
I can't think of anything that I'd want forever. You know. And the age thing, and tatoos...not so pretty.
Those young pretty girls with the tramp stamps across the small of their backs...not going to look so lovely at 65
OMG we LOVE LVMS, been twice, quite the show, and you can catch Sprint cars AND nascar the same weekend! Of course he would hafta be your pitcrew, lol. Sounds perfect to me.
So whatvu are saying is that as I get older, that Husky will look like a Sharpei
Uhm.....YEAH! lol
My fav is the 80 yr old marines with nakid ladies on their arms, lol. The big trend around here is your child's name tattoo, which can look nice.
windingwinds wrote:
So I've been trying to go through a midlife crisis cause that's expected ya know, been thinking bout getting a tattoo. What tattoo does everyone else have/want? I have several ideas, just can't make final decision.
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I've never gotten a tat. Never really wanted one. Well, back in the 80's when I was in the music biz and a rose on the ankle was all the rage with the girls, I thought about it. Then a good friend got one and went into detail about how damn painful it was. That was that, not for me. LOL
One of my best friends BITD (journalist and photographer, one of my "partners in crime" in the 80's rock 'n' roll world) got an incredible tattoo done ~ it was herself, dressed in chainmail, riding a beautiful black horse down a pathway of skulls. A mutual friend did it for her, it was amazing! All across her right shoulder and partway down her back. Very cool!
But I still don't have the desire to go there... ;)
Yep JR, but you'd have a neat story to tell the pretty nurses, lol. Italic names are the worst as you age.
HP alright.*sigh* I'll behave.*snort*giggle*oooopsie I peed.
Hey HP ifn you is wantin anudder hoss?
Ask me for some video. He is going to be large with substance.
For an A Rab.
I might even consider gifting him to you on a long as you want free lease.
Poor Guy he is too good of a horse to be stuck with my novice ass.
What do you suppose shipping would cost?
windingwinds wrote:
OMG we LOVE LVMS, been twice, quite the show, and you can catch Sprint cars AND nascar the same weekend! Of course he would hafta be your pitcrew, lol. Sounds perfect to me.
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That's what I keep telling him! Sigh.
LVMS is a great track ~ there isn't a bad seat in the house! From the nosebleeds to trackside. I think the first time we went there was in 2000.
You know, I've never been to any car races.
JohnieRotten wrote:
So whatvu are saying is that as I get older, that Husky will look like a Sharpei
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Oh JR, that is just SO wrong on SO many levels. LOL
Our landlady has a wolf. His face would make a really awesome tattoo!
Dale Earnhardt Terrace, 2007, 2006. Those seats spoil you for anything else. And NEVER waste time and money going to Indianapolis Motor Speedway, can't see half the track, crappy parking. Wish economy wasn't so sucky, Phoenix or Texas was next on our list
windingwinds wrote:
The big trend around here is your child's name tattoo, which can look nice.
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LOL That reminds me of a story...when my FIL and MIL were still married, back in his wild Hells Angels biker days, my FIL decided to get a tattoo of his wife's name on his shoulder. After imbibing on his drink of choice back then, Tequila, he looked in the mirror to admire the guy's work. To his amazement, anger and the poor artist's utter shock and surprise, my FIL hauled off and slugged him a good one. In the mirror, his new tattoo said "MAP" instead of "PAM". He was pretty pissed that the artist could have miss-spelled her name...LOL!!
JR I have been wondering. What did you learn about the best way to start cutters?
How early do you put them on cattle?
Do you think the flags are a better before or after cattle tool?
Are you riding them on cattle and progressing to another bit?
I been wondering a lot of things about young horses and cattle.
As, I have not been doing it long enough to have all the experience to know much.
The car racing is hubby's thing and ponies are my thing but we do both to keep things equal. He can do basic care and knows basic facts about ponies, and I now enjoy racing. It's not for everyone tho. :-)
windingwinds wrote:
Dale Earnhardt Terrace, 2007, 2006. Those seats spoil you for anything else. And NEVER waste time and money going to Indianapolis Motor Speedway, can't see half the track, crappy parking. Wish economy wasn't so sucky, Phoenix or Texas was next on our list
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Damnit, you're making me misty eyed. LOL That first time we went to Vegas, I think the third year the track was in operation? Was the first season Dale Earnhardt and Dale Jr raced against each other. Even though the race was called after a lengthy rain delay (it POURED on us), they both finished in the top ten. :) I believe it was Dale Jr's first Cup top ten, IIRC.
I enjoy Phoenix, but we haven't been there in a long time. My "big four" are Daytona, Talladega, of course Bristol and then I LOVE Richmond. Never been to any of them, always wanted to. Someday... :)
LMAO sfts, too funny.
2006 it SNOWED at LVMS, I was some kind of peeved hehe.
windingwinds wrote:
The car racing is hubby's thing and ponies are my thing but we do both to keep things equal. He can do basic care and knows basic facts about ponies, and I now enjoy racing. It's not for everyone tho. :-)
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See, that's the way it's supposed to work! LOL
I was always a race fan, from an early age. We lived not far away from Ontario Motor Speedway (which was torn down and is now a shopping mall) when I was really little, and then moved not far away from Riverside International Raceway (which was also torn down, and is also the site of a mall) when I was older up to my teens.
But when I met hubby, he was a hot rodder all the way. Plus, he did like the "romantic idea" of having horses. LOL... um, okay.
But like you guys, we can enjoy racing together, and horses together. How win-win is that? :)
Ah, shipping, generally the thing that puts the cost of a new pony above my level thank god or I'd have a hundred! Not many cow events around here, which is too bad cause I'd like to try team penning.
Hehe "romantic" horses...generally my hubby's idea of horse time is check the water tank and put his 88 ball cap on the horses head, and lol the entire herd allows it. (no treats involved)
Dena,
Not really looking for another horse. Just have a hunch this one hasn't gotten a fair shake. I know two of the previous owners.
Used to endurance with both of them.
And you know, if I get another, that puts off finishing the babies I already have. lol
Okay...I couldn't stand it. Had to go make fudge sauce for ice cream. Gee why am I 40lbs overweight? And of course it's totally low cal, low fat fudge sauce.
I was going to post the following on the thread about first rides. It seems maybe it belongs here instead...
I have to break it up- blogger only accepts 4096 characters or less. Who knew?
So part 1
SFTS- I have been reading your various, longwinded posts and thinking logically about some of the things you have said. While there are plenty of methods to training horses, and you have been using what seems to work for you, let me explain some of the things I do or don't and why. These are all things I have learned over the years from true horsemen, not so much 'trainers'.
I have always seemed to have been handed the nutcases with screws loose or several completely missing. The batshit, the aggressive, the bitchy and horses otherwise deemed unmanageable, savage or unruly. There has only been one horse I have refused to get on. I had my reasons and I was quite young at the time, with youth and pliability on my side.
SFTS-
>>Likewise, I ALWAYS use martingales on my young horses, from the third or fourth time being bitted and longed.<<
The problem I have with martingales, especially the running martingales so prevalent in the Arab circles, when the horse starts to buck most riders grab what's closest and hang on. Because the reins are already in their hands- they pull on them. Hard. Usually in a panic.
This wonderful 'training aid' pulls the horses head down. We all know when horses buck- the head goes down and they go to town. Essentially the head gets pulled down into prime position to HELP them buck. Not what I want at any stage of the game.
Saddlebronc riders take a short hold on the bucking rein to steady themselves against the horse as the horse leans into the noseband for balance as they buck. Martingales and tiedowns give them the same 'noseband' to push and balance themselves against as they buck. Sorry, again, no thanks.
Having been on both sides of the first ride(s), I don't want anything the horse, rider or header can get tangled up in. Less is more. Low quiet hands, develop low quiet heads on a horse. No gadgets needed to fix what isn't broken.
You stated not to long ago you also use side reins while lunging. I remember reading that thinking WHY? What the hell good does that do? You're lunging. You aren't doing anything else. I even wondered if your horses are that difficult to control?
Lunging is a way to excercise a horse, teach them to listen to your voice commands, pay attention to your body language, warm them up, let them work out their own kinks and bucks, settle down and get ready to work. Why not let them? Why the need to restrict and confine their heads? Catering to the show ring 'headset' crowd much? Besides, the more you try to take control- the more you lose all of it.
The only thing side reins do, are teach the horse there will always be pressure there. Even the elastic ended reins, the rubber donut reins or the plain leather reins. The horse will either lean or hang on the bit, accepting the steady constant pressure as the norm and learning to balance on it. There goes self carriage. I learned that early on in my horsey education.
Side reins don't bring a horses' head down. They can still carry it in the air, nose to their chest, elevated in the bridle, on or behind the verticle just the same. I have seen it. My Arab gelding did it a lot, as he became more resistant and more of an incredible bastard about things.
Draw reins? He could and would evade in those too.
See-sawing- his head and body wiggled like Jell-O. Once he started, it was a bitch to ride and difficult to get him to quit.
Martingales- never used a standing on him but did use a running martingale. They were and still are- almost considered 'regulation' in the Arab world. He knew when it came off and the fun began. At least for him it might have been fun...
Part 2
That incredible bastard knew how to resist or get out of a lot of things in 'training' and taught me a lot about better options and different choices. Just when I thought I had things figured out, he changed the game and ALL of the rules how to play.
I was doing things that were all, the 'industry norm' for Arabs back in the day. Several different trainers tried several different things with him. Saddles didn't matter either- A/P, Saddle Seat roping saddle or a bareback pad- I had one of each on him and he unloaded me and others out of them all, when he decided there should be a parting of ways. We never did make it to the show ring and now I kind of wish I had never sold him. I'm sure I would have learned a lot more.
Besides- martingales (running, standing or German) draw reins or side reins- NONE of them are 'allowed' in the show ring. There's a reason for that. The judge wants to see how well you have TRAINED the horse.
As far as sitting back on the rope and not tying, What the Fuck? Stop tying them? That's your answer? Why? Do you not know how to fix it? Horses need to know how to be tied and there are very few exceptions on this one.
There may come a time when it is "all hands on deck", yet two hands will not be able to help. They will be holding the horse because "he doesn't tie". Tying is like leading, loading and standing for the farrier. Very basic and needs to be taught long before an emergency arises and it it needed.
You mentioned sending your difficult horses off to another trainer for 30 days to be started. Can't figure it out? Sounds instead, like you may have partially *created* the problem. Besides, you send the horse out to be 'fixed'... In 30 days. Do you know WHAT they are doing to fix the problem? If not, you may be inadvertently unraveling everything when the horse comes back.
I read back over this and wonder if you have any sense of the things you post. As Cathy has said on numerous occasions- When you call yourself a professional, you are held to a higher standard. You are expected to know what you are doing. Maybe you should think about that.
I have noticed too, like Dena, that whenever anyone questions your methods, you come off with a Holier Than Thou attitude that You know best and know it all. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your's is obviously not always the best or only way to accomplish training a horse.
The reason I don't use the crap, the gadgets, gimmicks, tricks or games, is that they don't provide the lasting effects that actual training does.
I don't like getting hurt, not that I ever did, but if there is a way to avoid it- I'm all for it.
Our horses behave. For us, for clients, at home, at shows or anywhere else we take them. That is what is expected from them. Not behaving is NOT an option. Their safety and ours depends on it.
Dena
I start cutters about the same way I start any horse. I get em good and soft, put a good stop on them and when they are ready I put them on a cow. I like to use the mechanical cow first to get them tostart to rate some. Then they go on the real cow. I have never really been big on the flag.
As far as bits go, there again, when they are ready I will change.
I'll get a tatoo some day. When I can figure out what I want and where to put it.
It's going to be a while...
Well it's been fun, but I'm off to bed. I'll try to not hijack the blog next week :)
Hey Dena, it's almost midnight here.
I guess that blows a hole in your theory we all turn in early for partyin' people! LOL!
Please Ww
You are welcome to Hijack the blog.
JR, it's been a (cough cough) couple years since I had anything to do with starting cutters. Do they still do the mirroring? I used to love that.
Hp
Yep. They still do that.
I only use live cattle for that thoughhp. Actually mirroring the cow is the premise of cutting.
I am going to bed. I cannot type or think anymore!
CNJ and JR Thank you both. *sigh*
JR
The flag reminds me too much of the garbage bag on a stick thing.
As I have played at cutting over the years and never specifically trained for it I have a lot of questions.
CNJ that was pretty much the point.
Anything that draws the head down or in on a freshly started or green horse is not something I want to do. For the reasons you listed.
And if I am the one who started them they damn well better not need it when I am done. Or, I have failed somewhere.
And yes, I too get many of the horses that most people don't want to be on the same side of the fence as.
And nice doesn't always work with dangerous.
After the Cleve Wells and other exposures(I am in no way endorsing the things I saw that were just plain abuse) I thought it was important for people to understand that some methods are harsher but sometimes still necessary.
What seems to be missed sometimes is we the trainers did not create the problems that clients bring to us to fix.
It is a personal challenge to me to fix what I can. Because that too is rescue. To train the horse to be valued and treasured so it doesn't end up another borderline asshole potential throwaway.
Do I enjoy getting tough so to speak? Hell f*$%ing NO!
Will I do it even though it makes me want to puke to give that horse a chance?
You bet.
A dangerous horse is no ones friend and it's own worst enemy.
SFTS
The heifer will end up being here approximately 8 months.
Was I supposed to get it done in 30 days?
And lay a foundation that would last?
I think the FACT that people are willing to pay me that long in advance is a testimony to my success rate. Rather than qualifying me as a novice.
I was not trying to be a bitch. Or pissy. But I am damned tired of having someone else's Narcissism projected onto me.
And no, I do not do what I do to win a trophy or a ribbon. Or, acclaim.
I have just been trying to save some lives every step of the way.
And endangering my own to do it.
Like I said our reasons and ways are different. But hopefully each one of us ends in a good place.
You and I are not competition for each other. I knew that from Day 1.
Had I wanted your Dream I would have stayed with Bogg's. Because I was there when it was still Happy Hour Arabians. And through the initial transition to MidWest Training Center.
I have handled some of the best. Done the day to day that produced the Champions that were kicking your ass 30+ years ago.
And that is ALL I have to say about that.
JR I will have many more questions about cutting training.
CNJ I will consider you my Go To Girl for the ones that exhaust my resources or make me question myself.
I have another pony I want your opinion on too. She is gorgeous but hackney gaited. I need to lever her out. Which I have a feeling will go against all her pre-existing training. And she is 15.
Cut-N-Jump wrote:
SFTS- I have been reading your various, longwinded posts and thinking logically about some of the things you have said. While there are plenty of methods to training horses, and you have been using what seems to work for you, let me explain some of the things I do or don't and why. These are all things I have learned over the years from true horsemen, not so much 'trainers'.
I have always seemed to have been handed the nutcases with screws loose or several completely missing. The batshit, the aggressive, the bitchy and horses otherwise deemed unmanageable, savage or unruly. There has only been one horse I have refused to get on. I had my reasons and I was quite young at the time, with youth and pliability on my side.
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Is it something in the water tonight, or what? Is this all coming about because JR and I have had some differences of opinion on tying horses, patience poles and some training methods?? At least we can be civil, respectful and not obnoxious when discussing our differences...
I'll answer your post in sections. There may be more than two...
The problem I have with martingales, especially the running martingales so prevalent in the Arab circles, when the horse starts to buck most riders grab what's closest and hang on. Because the reins are already in their hands- they pull on them. Hard. Usually in a panic.
This wonderful 'training aid' pulls the horses head down. We all know when horses buck- the head goes down and they go to town. Essentially the head gets pulled down into prime position to HELP them buck. Not what I want at any stage of the game.
Saddlebronc riders take a short hold on the bucking rein to steady themselves against the horse as the horse leans into the noseband for balance as they buck. Martingales and tiedowns give them the same 'noseband' to push and balance themselves against as they buck. Sorry, again, no thanks.
Having been on both sides of the first ride(s), I don't want anything the horse, rider or header can get tangled up in. Less is more. Low quiet hands, develop low quiet heads on a horse. No gadgets needed to fix what isn't broken.
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Cut-N-Jump, there is a *right* way, and a *wrong* way to adjust a martingale. If the martingale, no matter when engaged, is pulling down on the horse's face, it's simply not adjusted properly. I see this A LOT. Horse isn't giving rider or trainer the "proper headset" with that martingale, crank that sucker down. Not for me.
FIrst and foremost for me, it's a safety issue as opposed to a "training aid". Yes, they can assist a horse in learning where to carry themselves in front, in some cases (and for a lot of folks that seems to be exactly what they are being used for). However again, that isn't the intended use from my standpoint. I'd rather have that martingale engage itself and prevent the horse from being able to crack my skull. I'm assuming you've seen severe head tossers? It's not pretty.
Are you trying to tell me that riders who don't use martingales never pull on a horse's mouth? Really? That's news to me.
I'm not exactly sure of the point you're trying to get across. Well, yes, maybe I am. Martingales are bad. Okay, to each his or her own. I use them. If you choose not to, that's perfectly fine with me. As long as my horses are happy, well trained and perform well, and as long as my clients are happy, I'm pleased with the means, the methods and the end result.
You stated not to long ago you also use side reins while lunging. I remember reading that thinking WHY? What the hell good does that do? You're lunging. You aren't doing anything else. I even wondered if your horses are that difficult to control?
Lunging is a way to excercise a horse, teach them to listen to your voice commands, pay attention to your body language, warm them up, let them work out their own kinks and bucks, settle down and get ready to work. Why not let them? Why the need to restrict and confine their heads? Catering to the show ring 'headset' crowd much? Besides, the more you try to take control- the more you lose all of it.
The only thing side reins do, are teach the horse there will always be pressure there. Even the elastic ended reins, the rubber donut reins or the plain leather reins. The horse will either lean or hang on the bit, accepting the steady constant pressure as the norm and learning to balance on it. There goes self carriage. I learned that early on in my horsey education.
Side reins don't bring a horses' head down. They can still carry it in the air, nose to their chest, elevated in the bridle, on or behind the verticle just the same. I have seen it.
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I use side reins for probably the same reason hundreds, if not thousands of folks do ~ to help teach young horses how to carry themselves, once fit and comfortable in their wardrobe, in the bridle. Control isn't in the bit, or the reins. It's in the training of the horse. If anyone is attempting to "gain control" by using any specific piece of tack, IMO you're working against yourself.
Much of the proper use of side reins is in how they are adjusted, much like a martingale. No reason at all, ever, to cause a horse to lean, any more than a rider using direct reins will, either. True, there will be more flexibility by a rider using reins than a horse tacked with sidereins, that's a given. But the key is in correct adjustment.
But back to your opening remark on the side rein topic, interesting you can make judgments without having a clue as to how things work here. I never, ever start a horse out on the longe with sidereins. They will ALL begin their work session, even though sometimes saddled and bridled, free longed (or on a longeline, depending on the circumstances [arena vs round pen]), with no reins or sidereins, neither "restricted or confined". Side reins, if used, will be attached after the horse has gotten the warmup, getting the kinks out et al, out of the way, and not before.
Again it goes back to PROPER ADJUSTMENT. Maybe you've never seen them (or a martingale) properly adjusted? They should never be constantly putting pressure on the horse. The idea is to allow the horse to seek that comfort zone and happy self carriage, not to force the horse into a headset, and cram them behind the bit.
I have yet to create a horse who leans, pulls or tries to balance themselves off the bit because of being worked in side reins. If you have, then I'd say there was an issue in your adjustment.
My Arab gelding did it a lot, as he became more resistant and more of an incredible bastard about things.
Draw reins? He could and would evade in those too.
See-sawing- his head and body wiggled like Jell-O. Once he started, it was a bitch to ride and difficult to get him to quit.
Martingales- never used a standing on him but did use a running martingale. They were and still are- almost considered 'regulation' in the Arab world. He knew when it came off and the fun began. At least for him it might have been fun...
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Has anyone said horses cannot evade in draw reins? I didn't see that. I most certainly did not. In fact, with some horses, draw reins seem to escalate the evasion of contact. Gives them an excuse, if you will. Which is why they're not suited for all horses.
I've said MANY times before, if the horse is relying too much on the martingale, it's time to re-evaluate your training in the first place. Just like a cavesson, if the horse NEEDS one to "behave", then Houston, you've got a problem. Training them not to count on that martingale (which is why it should never engage unless the horse tries to get upside down and break your nose) is fairly easy. It just takes consistently working the horse and ensuring that the horse understands what his rider is asking of him.
HP I totally get it. I have come to know that you do not collect them like Breyers or Halloween candy.
They sometimes call to you.
And I am glad you hear them...
CNJ that was meant to be level not "lever". It totally blows my theory about any of us being party people.lol
We breathe fire along with horses.
We always have the stamina for that.
JR what is a good book for foundation cutting priciples in training and riding?
Can't we all just get along!
I loved the mirroring work with one calf, and two horses up...facing each other...and both worked the cow back and forth. Way fun. It was like dancing.
Dena
I luv Cutting horse chatter magazine.
Good night my people!
We have an early trip to Tucson so Nama and Nampa can see their angles!
SFTS said:
But back to your opening remark on the side rein topic, interesting you can make judgments without having a clue as to how things work here
Yeah no shit CNJ how could you do that?
SFTS has never done such a thing.*eyeroll*
I begin to understand the meaning of speshul expert.
STFS the reason so often post STFS is a Fruedian slip. Stop Talking (fill in the blanks)_ _ _ _ _ _ _ Sh*T!
Do you ride those horses in the full bridle then without a cavesson?
Hate to see their tongues if you ever did.
Which I don't believe/hope you do.
All I am asking is could you please stop treating us like your
4H group?
We ALL have something to offer.
And we are not your students. Treating us as such is insulting...
Thanks JR. GoodNight All. It is quarter of 3 here.
That incredible bastard knew how to resist or get out of a lot of things in 'training' and taught me a lot about better options and different choices. Just when I thought I had things figured out, he changed the game and ALL of the rules how to play.
I was doing things that were all, the 'industry norm' for Arabs back in the day. Several different trainers tried several different things with him. Saddles didn't matter either- A/P, Saddle Seat roping saddle or a bareback pad- I had one of each on him and he unloaded me and others out of them all, when he decided there should be a parting of ways. We never did make it to the show ring and now I kind of wish I had never sold him. I'm sure I would have learned a lot more.
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Every once in a while, we all come across a horse who gets the better of us. I do believe key is knowing when we're in over our heads and when to seek outside help. ANY good trainer or horseman knows their limits and has no problem asking for help. There are no "perfect" horsemen or horse trainers. NO one person has ALL the answers.
I've had more than my share of those "breaking all the rules" horses. Please don't try to insinuate otherwise. I have one standing in a stall out back right now who unseated everyone she ever encountered ~ until I finally got hold of her.
Besides- martingales (running, standing or German) draw reins or side reins- NONE of them are 'allowed' in the show ring. There's a reason for that. The judge wants to see how well you have TRAINED the horse.
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Indeed. Already addressed. There's also a reason why so many well respected, highly skilled horsemen, in fields from Hunters and Jumpers, to Dressage, to various and sundry breeds and other disciplines use the aforementioned training aids or tools. They are able to get the results they like (and sometimes need) out of their mounts. About the only trainers I know who do not use such tools and aids on a regular basis (or at all........actually) are the Cutters and Reiners.
As far as sitting back on the rope and not tying, What the Fuck? Stop tying them? That's your answer? Why? Do you not know how to fix it? Horses need to know how to be tied and there are very few exceptions on this one.
There may come a time when it is "all hands on deck", yet two hands will not be able to help. They will be holding the horse because "he doesn't tie". Tying is like leading, loading and standing for the farrier. Very basic and needs to be taught long before an emergency arises and it it needed.
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Didn't you read ANYTHING I posted on the tying subject? Apparently not.
There have been *maybe* 3 or 4 horses I have encountered in 30 years of professionally training horses who I ultimately said you know what, okay, I'm not that concerned about you having to stand tied. I am not going to relate some of the long, sad tales of those horses...because I'd never get any sleep tonight. Those very few exceptions you'e talking about? BINGO. That's what I am talking about as well.
As I told your husband, I'm glad you've never encountered a horse who would rather injure itself (or you) than stand tied. They are out there, let me assure you.
You mentioned sending your difficult horses off to another trainer for 30 days to be started. Can't figure it out? Sounds instead, like you may have partially *created* the problem. Besides, you send the horse out to be 'fixed'... In 30 days. Do you know WHAT they are doing to fix the problem? If not, you may be inadvertently unraveling everything when the horse comes back.
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Where in the fuck did this sort of below the belt, bullshit personal attack come from? Left field? I'm guessing.
What I mentioned was, if I happen to come across a horse that I just DO NOT wish, at my age and as busy as I am, to deal with, I'd rather work IN CONJUNCTION with another trainer, someone I trust IMPLICITLY and am VERY WELL AWARE of their means, their methods and their philosophy, to get the horse through whatever the issue is
It's not like I'd just ship the horse off to some unknown asshat and expect a miracle in return. 30 days? Not necessarily. Could be as little as two weeks. Could be as long as three or more months.
Yes, Cut-N-Jump, I have had to fix MANY horses. Fairly successfully. However thankfully I am at a point in my career where I can CHOOSE which horses to take on, and which horses to pass on.
Jump to conclusions and assume much?
I read back over this and wonder if you have any sense of the things you post. As Cathy has said on numerous occasions- When you call yourself a professional, you are held to a higher standard. You are expected to know what you are doing. Maybe you should think about that.
I have noticed too, like Dena, that whenever anyone questions your methods, you come off with a Holier Than Thou attitude that You know best and know it all. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your's is obviously not always the best or only way to accomplish training a horse.
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I actually read, re-read then proof read everything I write, before it's posted. Sometimes I'll start writing replies in the morning during coffee while the horses are eating, then finish them up to post that evening, or the next day. Going back to read them again, just to make sure I got across the point I intended. Sometimes I may just fail in that endeavor. Hell, we're ALL only human. Even you.
Yes indeed, when we are putting ourselves out there as professionals, we should be held to a higher standard. I expect nothing less. Horse trainers are a dime a dozen. Good trainers are more rare. Folks are free to choose who they wish to send their horses to. I am thankful for all the wonderful folks who over the years have entrusted their horses to my care and training. I consider it an honor.
And I've never, ever ONCE said that "my way" was the best or only way to accomplish training a horse. Calling bullshit on that one, too. There are many ways to train horses. As many ways as there are horse trainers, just as there are hundreds (if not more) ways to feed a horse. Not all methods work for all horses, nor for all trainers. I am CONSTANTLY seeking knowledge, learning, keeping an open mind.
You might try it.
The reason I don't use the crap, the gadgets, gimmicks, tricks or games, is that they don't provide the lasting effects that actual training does.
I don't like getting hurt, not that I ever did, but if there is a way to avoid it- I'm all for it.
Our horses behave. For us, for clients, at home, at shows or anywhere else we take them. That is what is expected from them. Not behaving is NOT an option. Their safety and ours depends on it.
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I am glad what works for you, works for you.
My (and my clients') horses behave as well. For me, and my clients. At home, at shows, on trail rides or anywhere they are taken, because that, too, know what is expected and that misbehaving isn't allowed.
And you think it would be different here why?
JohnieRotten wrote:
Can't we all just get along!
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LOL...I'd love to, however I seem to be hosting the "Dena/Cut-N-Jump Tag Team" this evening during your party. :P
'Night.
Dena wrote:
SFTS
The heifer will end up being here approximately 8 months.
Was I supposed to get it done in 30 days?
And lay a foundation that would last?
I think the FACT that people are willing to pay me that long in advance is a testimony to my success rate. Rather than qualifying me as a novice.
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If you believe I work anywhere within the realm of "30 day wonders", it's time to pull your head out of your ass, Dena.
I won't even take a horse if an owner expects "training" to be completed in 30 days, or 60 days for that matter. As is explained long before I even accept a check from a new client, we fully, at length, discuss what the training process entails, and how I proceed toward an owner's end goal (which is hopefully a happy, sound, well trained and well behaved horse they can do anything they desire with).
What the Hell is with the judgmental bullshit this evening? Or the preposterous ASSumptions?
Good for you, having someone pay you for 8 months of training in advance. Glad to hear it. Maybe you can pay those utility bills? The rent? Feed for your horses? Perhaps to avoid another Planning FAIL?
Sorry, that was fairly snarky.
I was not trying to be a bitch. Or pissy. But I am damned tired of having someone else's Narcissism projected onto me.
And no, I do not do what I do to win a trophy or a ribbon. Or, acclaim.
I have just been trying to save some lives every step of the way.
And endangering my own to do it.
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Narcissistic? Hardly. If you're sensing anything projected onto you, maybe you should take a good, hard, long look in the mirror.
Anyone who trains horses *just* to win trophies, ribbons or acclaim is in the wrong business. I'd like to believe that most of us who train horses for a living do so because we wish to help horses and the people who love them. That is why I do what I do. And I've spent many a year deeply involved in rescue, Dena. Hell, I've never not been able to afford to feed my horses or had to beg for someone to help feed them. Nor have I ever gotten so far in over my head that I couldn't handle the numbers when they got so high. Wouldn't know a THING about that.
Need I go on? Drugs? Nope. Don't even drink (Well, other than the occasional fruity, flavored up wine cooler or a teeny tiny sip of Arrogant Bastard Ale). Kids taken away? Nope. Committed to a mental hospital? Never.
Oh, sorry. Snark again.
Like I said our reasons and ways are different. But hopefully each one of us ends in a good place.
You and I are not competition for each other. I knew that from Day 1.
Had I wanted your Dream I would have stayed with Bogg's. Because I was there when it was still Happy Hour Arabians. And through the initial transition to MidWest Training Center.
I have handled some of the best. Done the day to day that produced the Champions that were kicking your ass 30+ years ago.
And that is ALL I have to say about that.
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LOL...horses from Minnesota, no matter if owned or bred by Don & Shorty Boggs, or their children, never "kicked my ass". Funny ~ I don't remember showing in MN 30 years ago. But, whatever gets you off to believe.
You are correct, you are certainly not my competition.
And yes, I insist on "ending in a good place" with my horses, my clients and my students. It's all, only FOR THE HORSES.
Plus, Dena? It's not a dream, here. It's reality.
Touche.
Dena wrote:
>>>SFTS said:
But back to your opening remark on the side rein topic, interesting you can make judgments without having a clue as to how things work here<<<
Yeah no shit CNJ how could you do that?
SFTS has never done such a thing.*eyeroll*
I begin to understand the meaning of speshul expert.
STFS the reason so often post STFS is a Fruedian slip. Stop Talking (fill in the blanks)_ _ _ _ _ _ _ Sh*T!
Do you ride those horses in the full bridle then without a cavesson?
Hate to see their tongues if you ever did.
Which I don't believe/hope you do.
All I am asking is could you please stop treating us like your 4H group?
We ALL have something to offer.
And we are not your students. Treating us as such is insulting...
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Your answer is simple, Dena. And Cathy has repeatedly mentioned on her blog how to ignore a user's comments. If you don't wish to read my comments, skip them. It can't be that hard even for you to figure out.
Freudian slip. LOL...more like childish, idiotic dogma.
Ride horses in full bridles? Indeed, for flat saddle English horses who have graduated out of a snaffle, for Show Hack horses who have likewise graduated, for upper level Dressage horses........Dena, have you never seen a full bridle? A cavesson is part of the package, as with ANY English bridle. *facepalm*
Treat you like 4H kids or my students? Sweetie, you would KNOW it if I was treating you like a student of mine, or one of our 4H kids. I'm also NOT saying that in a bad way. Not at all (my students tend to REALLY love me...oh, sorry, was that "tooting my own horn" a bit too much? it's true, though........).
You might actually have something to offer after all. If you'd get off that high horse before you fall.
* * * * * * * *
Good night, all. It's been fun. ;)
No SFTS no one is picking on you. Simply sharing how you make others feel with your occasionally condescending posts and replies.
Did you think no one would eventually get full up?
Reread your own posts. How it may look to a novice?
And the ring riders are going to show me how it is done and what a good horse is?
And I will get there someday?
I am going to tell you something. I already KNOW what it takes to really succeed in the world you are so enamored of.
Breaking ALL the rules of good horsemanship is just the start.
And yes, I deliberately threw out your reference to my little pearl of wisdom. The one you belittled me for on fhotd.
That you did not even know existed until it was pointed out to you. By me.
And I didn't point it out beyond your post addressing it. Because I didn't want to fight.
Just like I didn't put this on fhotd. I was not trying to attack you. But you had to push it to the piss off point.
And for the record? I am not unwilling to learn from you or anyone.
There is however a lot to be said for presentation.
And thus far? You really have not given me much to work with except a superior attitude.
Like I said I don't dislike you. I have nothing against you.
I am just tired of unsolicited schooling from someone who has yet to prove themselves as my better.
The show record would only count if I had been in the same classes.
I am thinking if you were a horse you wouldn't tie, take your leads, or give to the bit.
Because you sure can't seem to take a hint when someone is saying enough.
Take a deep breath. Get real. And learn how to read people.
You want to share? Share. But you are preaching to the choir here when it comes to trying to educate me or anyone else that trains.
I really should not have read any more.
I could have avoided what I am about to say.
SFTS at least I do not come across as sooooooooo desperate for training clients that I have to blow my own horn all over the internet.
And as to the rest? Bless your heart and Fuck Off.
You are seriously pathological in your presentations. The sky is up. The sky is down.
Yep, I did drugs. Established fact.
But I no longer question who is in need of medication.
Or, horsemanship lessons...
Dena wrote:
No SFTS no one is picking on you. Simply sharing how you make others feel with your occasionally condescending posts and replies.
Did you think no one would eventually get full up?
Reread your own posts. How it may look to a novice?
And the ring riders are going to show me how it is done and what a good horse is?
And I will get there someday?
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Believe me, Dena, I don't feel picked on. Not in the least. Was I a bit cranky in one or two of my replies? Yes. Shit happens. Long day, difficult day in some ways ~ utterly non-horse related.
Btw, the you'll get there someday comment? That was sarcasm. I'm sorry you didn't recognize it. Truly.
I am going to tell you something. I already KNOW what it takes to really succeed in the world you are so enamored of.
Breaking ALL the rules of good horsemanship is just the start.
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And so many of the things you have admitted to doing on this very blog is *good horsemanship*? Sigh. Maybe you have a longer way to go than I thought. (more snark)
But I won't ask you to tell us all about those many successes you have in "my" world (you know, the one I am "enamored" of). You seem like you desperately want to be taken seriously, yet you're nothing if not consistent in showing your ignorance. Or your biases.
That lame excuse below about having to be in the same classes for the show record to count? I call bullshit.
And yes, I deliberately threw out your reference to my little pearl of wisdom. The one you belittled me for on fhotd.
That you did not even know existed until it was pointed out to you. By me.
And I didn't point it out beyond your post addressing it. Because I didn't want to fight.
Just like I didn't put this on fhotd. I was not trying to attack you. But you had to push it to the piss off point.
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LOL! Assuming I didn't know AHA's Arabian Community Show rules...and that YOU had to be the one to explain this to me! Good God, Dena. I was WELL AWARE of what those rules say, long before I ever knew you existed. Knowing the rules of the venues I show in is my job. Yeah, yeah, I know.
Go right ahead, Dena. Attack me on FHOTD. It is your style, after all. I will wait for all of your alters to jump on the bandwagon and into the fray, too.
And for the record? I am not unwilling to learn from you or anyone.
There is however a lot to be said for presentation.
And thus far? You really have not given me much to work with except a superior attitude.
Like I said I don't dislike you. I have nothing against you.
I am just tired of unsolicited schooling from someone who has yet to prove themselves as my better.
The show record would only count if I had been in the same classes.
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I have never been out to "prove myself as better" than anyone. Not even you, Dena. And frankly, I couldn't care less what you think. Your opinion? Meaningless. You have shown your true colors over the past week or so. And to think I was one of the few who defended you earlier this year.
But fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...let's just say, I won't be fooled again. (Yep, a Who reference..wow, it MUST be late).
I am thinking if you were a horse you wouldn't tie, take your leads, or give to the bit.
Because you sure can't seem to take a hint when someone is saying enough.
Take a deep breath. Get real. And learn how to read people.
You want to share? Share. But you are preaching to the choir here when it comes to trying to educate me or anyone else that trains.
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As I explained earlier, Dena, if you don't wish to read my comments, skip them.
I don't think you will, of course. They'll ALWAYS compel you to reply. It's just your nature.
Dena wrote:
I really should not have read any more.
I could have avoided what I am about to say.
SFTS at least I do not come across as sooooooooo desperate for training clients that I have to blow my own horn all over the internet.
And as to the rest? Bless your heart and Fuck Off.
You are seriously pathological in your presentations. The sky is up. The sky is down.
Yep, I did drugs. Established fact.
But I no longer question who is in need of medication.
Or, horsemanship lessons...
- - - - - - - -
You're still ALWAYS the life of the party, aren't you Dena?
Desperate for training clients, having to blow my horn...all over the internet. LOL!
Well, when one has a waiting list, I don't think that means one is desperate. ;) You might see it differently, though. We seem to see a LOT differently.
Did I hit a nerve?
Oh, sorry.
Well, not really.
But I do offer my sincere apologies to those who have had to suffer through reading my responses to your delusions of grandeur.
Wow, this party certainly ended up badly.
I am only going to say one thing, SFTS, I thought it was really bad form and in poor taste for you to pull out the "Dena's Past Card" here on this blog.
Well...I will make an attempt to ignore all the copy and paste postings in the future.
As, they generally take up 75% or better of any given page it might be hard.
But at least I will see them coming.
As for the rest? I will simply let the evidence speak for itself.
CharlesCityCat wrote:
Wow, this party certainly ended up badly.
I am only going to say one thing, SFTS, I thought it was really bad form and in poor taste for you to pull out the "Dena's Past Card" here on this blog.
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I actually agree with you, CCC.
Though being one of the very few who was supportive and non-judgmental of her on the other blog, there just came a point where I became tired of her haughty, holier-than-thou bullshit and baiting of me.
After a long, difficult day, I snapped. Apologies to the rest of you were offered, and very sincere.
However, I'm going to stand behind not being too damned pleased at being baited, repeatedly, and personally attacked.
As any rational person can see, I tried to move past the relentless baiting. But she just...kept...coming...back...for...more. I was successfully diverted, and actually enjoying the conversation, until once again, there was that patronizing, contemptuous sneer. Directed at myself.
There are limits to what ought to be tolerated. By anyone.
JR said - "Can't we all just get along!"
Ha! My very favorite line from Mars Attacks. Said by Jack Nicholson "Can't we all just...GET ALONG?" playing the U.S. President, said to the head of the evil empire of Martians attempting to destroy earth. The alien seems conciliatory, reaches out to grab Nicholson's offered hand of peace. They shake - the world is saved - the aliens hand detaches itself, climbs his arm and to Nicholson's shoulder, grows a big stake and plunges it into Nicholson's heart, and continues to take of the earth until foiled by a clueless grandma and her really bad country western music!
That's some good old-fashioned irony there!
As far as Dena, SFTS, and even Cut-n-Jump who joined the fray for a while, well you ladies can all kick my ass backwards and forwards when it comes to horse training, handling knowledge and all that. I read your posts and understand about 2% of what you are arguing about. I just want horse to go, horse to stop, horse not to kill me or self. Hell, I'd just like to find the time/energy to GET ON my horse more than once a week which seems to be my current capabilities. Anything beyond that I truly grant you all the right to feel much superior in your horse skills and experience than mine. If that makes ya all feel better.
And JR - definitely, more booze next time!
CCC how are you? I was going to send you an email.
I got chumped on the gelding. He was sold to some guy for some bush track for $1,000 after the deal was made with me.
I am sure there wll be more and it is probably for the best.
CNJ your avatar originally made me cringe. And now, I can honestly say, it literally cracks me up on a multitude of levels.
All pun intended.
Hey Dena,
Doing fine. Sorry about the gelding, that seems like some pretty shitty double-dealing to me.
I am sure you will come up with something soon.
CNJ, I agree with Dena on your avatar.
I just clicked on it and enlarged it, now I realize what it really is. SNORK!!!
MORE BOOZE, and maybe some valium, ativan or xanax. Flomax can help with the urinary difficulties. O wait, you want the pissing to STOP, maybe ditropan? Very helpful for ladies hehehe. ;-)
PrairieFarmer wrote:
JR said - "Can't we all just get along!"
Ha! My very favorite line from Mars Attacks. Said by Jack Nicholson "Can't we all just...GET ALONG?" playing the U.S. President, said to the head of the evil empire of Martians attempting to destroy earth. The alien seems conciliatory, reaches out to grab Nicholson's offered hand of peace. They shake - the world is saved - the aliens hand detaches itself, climbs his arm and to Nicholson's shoulder, grows a big stake and plunges it into Nicholson's heart, and continues to take of the earth until foiled by a clueless grandma and her really bad country western music!
That's some good old-fashioned irony there!
As far as Dena, SFTS, and even Cut-n-Jump who joined the fray for a while, well you ladies can all kick my ass backwards and forwards when it comes to horse training, handling knowledge and all that. I read your posts and understand about 2% of what you are arguing about. I just want horse to go, horse to stop, horse not to kill me or self. Hell, I'd just like to find the time/energy to GET ON my horse more than once a week which seems to be my current capabilities. Anything beyond that I truly grant you all the right to feel much superior in your horse skills and experience than mine. If that makes ya all feel better.
And JR - definitely, more booze next time!
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LOL! I forgot about that movie...undoubtedly that line was slipped in there as a not-so-subtle reference to the Rodney King riot thing out here in So Cal a few years before, where he so famously uttered those words. I remember that more than the movie. :P
You know PF, I'm not interested in feeling superior to anyone. :) I'm interested in helping folks better understand their horses, and welcome both questions as well as discussion.
Maybe you can help me (us all, really) help you to better understand what's being discussed, if you're not sure? Well, methods, terms and so forth related to actually training horses, not the sniping. To me, that would be the best thing that could come out of this entire mess.
Ya know CNJ, all those white moons and not one tattoo..they need to work on their partying skills!
windingwinds wrote:
MORE BOOZE, and maybe some valium, ativan or xanax. Flomax can help with the urinary difficulties. O wait, you want the pissing to STOP, maybe ditropan? Very helpful for ladies hehehe. ;-)
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LMAO!! You just made me spit coffee all over my monitor!!
Okay, it's time to get back outside and get to work. :)
I'll probably pip in from time to time today, it's thankfully to be a fairly easy, relaxed day.
Have a great day ya'll. Even you, Dena.
SFTS -
Thank you for your offer! I will remember it sometime something comes up. Rather not rehash all this and to be honest, I don't even remember what was all the point of argument anyways! (LOL).
And I do admit to feeling intimidated by some of the postings (posters) here and on FHOTD. Especially when the folks that seem to, at least, talk the talk, can't agree. I hate to announce my own stupidity at times although, if I feel like I can get an open and honest dialogue in return I'll do it. And to be honest, I think some of that is what puts a lot of other folks off of learning more about horses not just in the online format, but real world stuff as well. I've got enough self-confidence to be willing to admit, there's a lot I don't know about horses. But sometimes I'm with my dad, who grew up riding horses for a living (though he never much liked them in that horse-obsessed way, they were a tool used to move cattle) and then used to haul and sell hay, and ended up refusing to sell to anybody who was buying for horses cuz, in his words, "most of those horse folks are nuts!"
But on the other hand, I bet I could all kick your ass when it comes to growing stuff (except flowers, not so good at flowers...)! And in the interest of complete self-promotion and because I just got like 6 emails in a row from folks reading it - I got a mention in one fo the big seattle news magazines. Here ya go (I'm the farmer, not the chef...and sorry, never have figured out how to do the hyperlink on blogger).
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/pacificnw/2009328308_pacificptaste14.html
Good Job on your post PF.
Horse people are a bunch of obstinate cusses aren't they. I do enjoy seeing different ways to do things. I pretty much read everything and realize what would and would not work for me and my equines. I know them far better than anyone else after all.
BTW, I am not a trainer, I have worked with a few horses in my day (other than my own) but that was to help out friends.
PF
I will have to agree with you about what puts people off of learning in the real world as well as online.
I prefer that people, at least check their egos at the door and open their minds. That goes for me as well!
The pointless back and forth just proves that people do become set in their ways. Their again, that includes me!
SFTS, while your input is appreciated, could you please shorten your posts a little!;)
I appreciate the fact that you feel you all can post here and voice your opinions and hope you all continue to do so and hope more will continue to join us.
CCC -
Obstinate cusses for sure! Hee-hee. Although, I admit, I'd rather be considered that than PC!
And JR - you've gotta be just about the sweetest boozer cowboy horse trainer I've ever had the pleasure to know. If you were here nearby, I make even want to send a horse to you!
CNJ - I can see why you married him (plus the name, what woman can resist a man who goes by the name Johnnie Rotten!!!).
P.S. And just cuz I'm in the sharing mood - I got to drive a 1947 International H tractor, pulling an about 100 year old squash wagon loaded with food, the 3 miles from farm, through town and residential neighborhood, to our local farmer's market yesterday. It was a hoot (although I was thinking as I was bouncing and swaying along in the open cab, I probably should be wearing a helmet LOL). Best part was coming back, stopped at the traffic light to cross the hwy! Hee-hee. Now, I just want to do it with a team of drafts (oh no, a WHOLE BUNCH more stuff to learn...).
PrairieFarmer wrote:
SFTS -
Thank you for your offer! I will remember it sometime something comes up. Rather not rehash all this and to be honest, I don't even remember what was all the point of argument anyways! (LOL).
And I do admit to feeling intimidated by some of the postings (posters) here and on FHOTD. Especially when the folks that seem to, at least, talk the talk, can't agree. I hate to announce my own stupidity at times although, if I feel like I can get an open and honest dialogue in return I'll do it. And to be honest, I think some of that is what puts a lot of other folks off of learning more about horses not just in the online format, but real world stuff as well. I've got enough self-confidence to be willing to admit, there's a lot I don't know about horses.
- - - - - - - -
I'll bet there are a LOT of things you could kick my ass at. LOL...I know nothing at all about the farming world, Hell I don't know a whole lot about anything other than Music, Hotrods (cars & motorcycles ~ and I'm pretty much a rank novice, learning as we go from hubby), Writing and, of course, Horses. They are my passion!
Always remember, no question is a stupid question. I hear from people quite frequently that they're intimidated by folks they perceive as being more knowledgeable. That used to be me, many years ago. When I was your typical teenager. However, I learned over time to ask, and ask, and ask some more. If I see something I don't understand, or want to know more about, I ask. I'm known for spending time at horse shows and events just observing. Taking it all in. When I'm not in a rush to get into a class, or help a client/student. I constantly want to expand my knowledge.
I am by no means an "Expert", but I am pretty good at what I do. And helping folks really is the icing on the cake of life. :)
CharlesCityCat wrote:
Horse people are a bunch of obstinate cusses aren't they. I do enjoy seeing different ways to do things. I pretty much read everything and realize what would and would not work for me and my equines. I know them far better than anyone else after all.
BTW, I am not a trainer, I have worked with a few horses in my day (other than my own) but that was to help out friends.
- - - - - - - -
I think most of us do take a little, and leave a little when it comes to formulating our methods for dealing with various issues. I know I do. I have also learned what NOT to do as much as what TO do, if not more, over the years of observation.
Dialogue, debate and even heated, passionate discussion are good. Keeps us on our toes. But when it deteriorates into the contentious bullshit and drama of last night, no one wins. Least of all the horses, and those individuals whom we want to reach out to.
JohnieRotten wrote:
SFTS, while your input is appreciated, could you please shorten your posts a little!;)
- - - - - - - -
JR, I shall try my level best. Just don't be too surprised if every now and again I get long winded. It is an old habit which might be hard to break. LOL
And please accept my truly sincere apologies for allowing myself to get dragged into that quagmire on your blog last night. It wasn't right, and not the place for it. I should have walked away and not taken the bait. When people go looking for a fight, it's never a winning situation.
Yeah, egos do need to be controlled. We're probably all rather guilty.
I think we can probably ALL learn from each other. But that takes open minds and a healthy dose of humble pie every now and again.
Thanks again for the invite, I'll try harder to be a good girl in the future. ;)
PF-driving should come with a warning, cause it's addictive! :-) If you ever do drive that draft team, take pics!! And some of us are visual learners so type all ya want, but it doesn't click for me til I see it in person!
windingwinds -
Do you (or anybody else) know if it is possible to find out there real, old school type morgans? Like the pull the plow, win the race, pull the fancy carriage to church type morgan? Or did they all get lost in the quest for the pretty show ring morgan? (blech).
I would love to find a team like that to venture into my "horse farming" fantasy (my father thinks I'm nuts, he has a point...). And I can't afford them if they are a fortune. Other than that, maybe Percherons. That's what my grandfather and great-grandfather had.
Yeah there are old style out there, Amish like them, but you're a bit far from Indiana.
SFTS...you are kind of long winded at times. And copying and pasting entire posts from others is redundant. You really don't need to do that. Really, we can keep up. Just reference the post, like 'in regards to JR's post.....' It would be much simpler.
I find myself looking at the mass of text and skipping large portions of it. Concise, really good word. Being concise really good practice. I can't speak for anyone else here. That's just my take on it. It comes across as condescending. Don't be in such a hurry to say how you do it, and how someone elses method is incorrect. We all have our styles. We all have what works for us. Different temperaments, different disciplines, different horses. Don't discount somebody just because they're different.
I am not getting into the he said she said.
Gee, thanks JR. I feel like we all just got whacked on the nose with a rolled up newspaper.
You been hanging around Toadstool Bob's blog again? I swear Toady, I'll keep my hands off your nachos. Besides I'm not much for jalepenos.
Anything in mind for a new post soon?
About my avitar pic- my best friend sent me that. I laughed, and knew where it needed to go.
HP...lol...yes, I know I can be long winded. Kind of?? Are you kidding? ;) I've committed to trying to get better about it. :) Concise is...not generally in my vocabulary. But I'm going to give it the old college try.
I don't ever try to be condescending. Well, okay, maybe last night in response to Dena. And I've already apologized, several times, for letting her get the better of me. :) It wasn't pretty. But it wasn't meant to be.
But I've never stated that "everyone else is incorrect", and I've not tried to imply such a thing. If that was perceived, it was an honest oversight on my part. I learn on a regular, daily basis from both the horses and my fellow horsemen/women. I love learning. But those who have said that learning ceases to happen when things get pissy and personal are so correct.
And I never, ever discount the opinion of folks I might even disagree with on method, theory and implementation. Unless they "Pull a Dena" and go after me personally.
I'm truly sorry. Hopefully this wasn't too long winded of me. And no copy/paste! :)
How about those accident prone horses that do things that defy logic!? Or is that a story for FHOTD?
WW
i can do a post about those horses
I have seen my share of those!
Oh goody, cause I had a DOOZY this a.m...will work on getting pics uploaded. (I have 2 get 2 a real puter to upload)
JR way back in the day I had gotten a really gorgeous AQHA gelding that had won a bunch and been ring soured.
That horse loved trailriding though.
Had a boarder who couldn't ever remember to close gates.
We lived on a busy busy street.
The gelding happened to be in a stall.
OMG was he amazing. Nothing was getting by him. Played at it some more over the next couple of weeks with another horse that was just a real challenge to catch.
Did some research and called a cuttinghorse trainer. Really nice guy. Said he thought the horse was too old to really start cutting.
Horse was 8. What do you think about starting mature horses on the sport?
Congratulations PF very cool. All of it actually.
CCC I was/am not thrilled. And completely agree.
Dena
I do not think that there is an age limit on horses.
We have a bay Colonel Freckles mare in the barn that showed no desire as a young horse to be a cutter. So she was shown as a reiner and has one ROM in reining.
Later, we put her back on cattle as a 7 year old and now the mare has turned into one hell of cutter.
If you feel that the horse may have the aptitude for cutting, then it may be worth a try to start him on cattle and see where the horse is willing to take you.
Do not rush the horse and make sure that you condition the horse prior to starting anything new.
Cool...Thanks JR. What is your preferred method of conditioning?
I like to mix it up myself.
Several things that should have killed me in my teenage years. No booze involved. Both done in broad daylight, and except for riding through the river, done with accomplices.
1. Riding Paint mare from hell on a county road bareback with no bridle, halter. Just a lead rope under her neck to loop over her nose and get her to stop or turn. Just like a Plains Indian chasing buffalo, of course!
2. Riding same horse through a flooded river (In February, while raining) that was utterly safe to cross in the summer. I learned that horses swim well as long as they don’t fight the current very much and that it’s best that I swim alongside said horse.
Yes, the horse was fine. Wet, angry but fine.
My parents never found out. If my own daughter had done something like that with her bomb-proof QH, I’d have grounded them both.
I did do a bad thing though at our annual county fair. There was a competitor whose daddy was made of money. She'd come in and beat the socks off of everyone. We'd go on stealing raids, climbing over the wall into her tack room and steal small stuff (can't hardly steal her saddle and then expect to use it, but it's hard to prove that bucket or halter or bridle is yours ... we'd rip off feed and supplements and other grooming stuff). One year one of the other kids cut the forelock off of her palomino horse, and cut the tail to the hock. Yeah I know—not cool.
Kallista wrote:
The other question is more general. How long is good to work them? I usually do an hour, by the time I get going and finish up. Gather my stuff, give a quick brush and a fly spray while I'm about it so we are both comfortable and relaxed, about 40 min of work, another brush down (fast) for their reward and sometimes a peppermint or alfafa pellet or two if they were really good for me.
Does that sound like a reasonable plan?
- - - - - - - -
I'm not JR and I hope you (or he!) don't mind my giving you a reply, but I thought maybe I could pipe up and give you my opinion.
How long to work a horse depends on so many factors. Age, level of condition, level of training, what you're doing with the horse and about a zillion other things.
As I don't know anything about your horse(s), it's hard to know if 40 minutes of actual work is too much, just right and so on. For youngsters, I generally try to limit their working time and prefer not to longe them, particularly in small circles. Free longeing in a larger arena or ponying is IMO the best exercise for a baby. For older horses, I'll utilize a variety of ways to work a horse, from free longeing and ponying as well, to longeing, bitting and longeing, longlines/ground driving, hand walking or time on the hotwalker (not one of my favorites, but in a pinch it can work). The aforementioned are for conditioning purposes. Once the horse is under saddle, Ill work riding into the rotation. I prefer riding them to anything, it's generally the best conditioning you'll get to keep them in condition once they are already fit.
I really only use a timeline when I'm longeing for condition, or handwalking/hotwalking the horse for the same reason. I am a big fan of the "less is more" theory in riding and training horses, and I prefer to do that initial conditioning while *not* on their backs. If a horse gives me his all, and does everything he is asked within a 15-20 minute time frame, I have never seen any reason to continue to push the point. By that time with many horses, you've already exceeded their attention span limits. They also tend to get frustrated when a rider asks for the same thing, over and over. A common reaction seems to be, "Hey, I am doing it right, why does he/she keep picking on me?" Then you have an explosion waiting to happen.
Hopefully this insight into what we do here helps. At least gives you an understanding of how someone else works.
[haven't read any other replies yet ~ tackled this one first, my apologies to anyone who feels I have stepped on toes here]
I'm new to this blog - looks like a good one.
Craziest thing I ever did? When I was in college, I had bunch of friends that owned horses, and we boarded them off campus about 10 miles away. Now, this happened during the drug-crazed 70's...
We all got bored one Saturday night so we got together and dropped acid. Having done this many time previously, we were still bored, so one of the guys said, "Let's go down to the barn and take a midnight psychedelic trail ride!" Sure seemed like a good idea at the time. So off we went.
Wow, it was a trip. I was the only one who owned a "colorful" horse, having a bay and white tobiano, but damn! All the horses suddenly were appearing in rainbow colors and wicked cool patterns. Catching them in the pasture was easy; the guys haltered their horses and led them in, but I had to be cool, so I climbed up and rode my horse in with only a halter and lead rope. But I forgot that there was an electric fence wire strung around 7 1/2 feet high over the opening in the stone wall between the outer pasture and the barn yard. It caught me right in the bridge of the nose and knocked me backwards off the horse onto my back. Don't know how I escaped bashing my brains out. Good old horse just stood there waiting for me to get back on. Despite it all, we managed to groom the horses, tack them up correctly, survive a trip down a half mile paved road to a really nice dirt road where we had a galloping good time.
I am happy to report that all survived the "trip" in good shape - horse, the guys, and this dumb broad too. If I had to do it again? Yeah, I would, but I'd remember to duck under the wire!
Daggone it, I was working on a truly award winning post and my stupy computer froze. Oh well, such is life.
Anyway, glad everyone has come to an understanding of sorts. IMO, JR did not start his blog to be a FHOTD #2, so checking the attitudes and egos at the door is a good idea. Like I said, that is my opinion.
I am interested in conditioning tips.
I ride hunters, don't show anymore but do foxhunt. I don't have a real arena but do have some land to ride on.
My horses:
Whinnie, I am not worried about her, she just needs to work more. She is a fatty (like me) but doesn't have any issues other than being cold-backed. JR has already given me some tips on that.
Wizard, I wouldn't have any problems about him except due to my own ignorance, he became laminitic last spring. He did not actually founder. I am managing him this year and he is doing well. Don't want to create any issues with him, so some tips are appreciated.
Buck, well what can I say, he is a big ole lazy Perch. Any one with tips on conditioning a draft would be appreciated.
Odessa:
Really great story!!!!!!
CCC HP CNJ JR you guys here? I can't look.
Actually I can't see anything.
I blindfolded my self.
It is the curse of addiction. I can't pass up temptation without utilizing extraordinary measures.
Oh For The Love Of God!!! What have I done???
Music please...
CNJ no wonder you leave him with the kids. He is good...
And he has HP backup.
CCC I feel compelled to point out based on my own knowledge of self.
Terms of sort basically means I will be good. Until, JR sets down the rolled up newspaper and becomes distracted by something else.*runs away throwing diaper over shoulder*
And it isn't shit stirring when you are simply and desperately flailing to keep your head above it.
Something had to give. Apparently my ability to be patient and polite. Oh and tolerant.
But that whack on the nose set me straight. It sure did.
Psssssst CNJ did he put it down yet?
Smiles angelically and say G'Night All.:)
SFTS said...
JohnieRotten wrote:
SFTS, while your input is appreciated, could you please shorten your posts a little!;)
- - - - - - - -
JR, I shall try my level best.
SFTS said...
Kallista wrote:
The other question is more general. - - - - - - - -
I'm not JR and I hope you (or he!) don't mind my giving you a reply, but I thought maybe I could pipe up and give you my opinion. Blah, blah, blah. blah.....
SFTS- comprehension FAIL
Dena, go back on your meds dearie.
fortherecord said...
Blah, blah, blah. You're STILL a fucking moron.
Go cause trouble elsewhere.
So you see, CCC, as diplomatic as you are, you'll still never get through to Dena.
And apparently fortherecord didn't get the "be nice" memo, either.
Back to the good info. It should be all about the horses.
JR, where are you? Bud, your blog needs an injection of your training knowledge again. I vote for more posts about training horses. *s*
Pardon me for this, too, but I just have to ask.
Dena, when are you going to pay that fine you still owe the state of Minnesota for littering on a public highway a few months ago?
Try being responsible.
Ok I'll be nice now. *s*
ForTheRecord- CopyCat Fail.
punksuation aktually important.
Especially when playing imposter.
You fucking imbecile.
I wasn't trying to impersonate you, I was mocking you.
Learn the difference.
Do you actually own horses, or have any legitimate reason to be on a horse training blog?
Or is troublemaking your only specialty?
Get a life.
Hey JR -
So...I think it would be just fine by me if you want to moderate!
Well that sucks. I guess it told me. I don't have any meds to take though.
That could be a problem.
For the record does that mean you work on behalf of the record?
Or think you are the record?
PF I am with you.
This is an online training resource.
With a really cool name.
I happen to like it here.
As it was designed I get some very good input with regard to training.
It also has the side benefit of being very funny. On occasion.
PrairieFarmer wrote:
Hey JR -
So...I think it would be just fine by me if you want to moderate!
- - - - - - - -
I agree with you 100%! Maybe "suspend" a poster's ability to post if they try starting an argument, too? :) This should be reserved for talking about TRAINING HORSES, not arguing. Oh, and then there's the Friday night parties. Parties should be FUN!!
JR I think some of us who rely on horses for some part of our income might be feeling a little wonky.
It is tough times right now. Has been for a bit.
Do you suppose when they closed the plants and brought the failure return price down we are seeing that affect in training?
My fees aren't that high. Right about $600 a month.
I still turn some away. But not like 2 years ago.
A lot of the breeders simply bred for the big sales. And didn't think twice about sending the youngstock out to train.
And the big sales have changed their fee structures substantially.
Catalog fees, commission fees, no sale fees, etc., etc..
What do you think?
JR
My wife and I went of town on vacation for two weeks and have missed your parties.
I have been reading your blog and am enjoying it immensely!
PF-he actually took his screen name from his mare. Who can be the rankest bitch in the barn, but one of the best damn horses in the world. How that works, I'm still not sure? But she was the 'other redhead' in his life before me. So we tolerate each other...
I ride her occasionally and she lets me stay on. She will work like a dream for a small beginner child, then push our buttons and give us the finger with a "You asked for it, but I don't think I will..." Not in a mean way, but enough to make the rider make sure their cues are clean, direct and consistent. Always a good reminder for any level of rider.
Did the grant info I sent ever work out for your group? Just curious.
As far as training and handling skills- it comes with time. No faking it or cramming it all in overnight. Nobody is born with it and we all pick things up from time to time. It's just like training horses, sometimes you have to step back and re-evaluate things.
Dena- he has put down the newspaper, at least temporarily... though I may give him cause to pick it up again from time to time.
windingwinds said...
PF-driving should come with a warning, cause it's addictive! :)
It sure is! But it can also be far more dangerous. Remember, the only aids you have are reins, voice and whip. There is also this thing behind the horse- strapped and fastened on. When things go south and a driving horse panics, the cart goes with them with or without you. It can be a pretty hairy experience until everything comes to a complete stop. Been there once or twice...
There is a huge amount of trust that the green horse must have in their handler before they are 'put to' a cart. They need to know, that things can just melt down and fall apart around me, but as long as I listen to my driver 'I' will be fine. My driver will keep me safe.
PF- since you're in the PNW, you might check into this. Plowing competition. The article is a bit 'dated', but it seems like they have a hell of a good time and plenty of folks willing to share the how and why, of horses for farming. There is a caledar on the website- I haven't checked to see if there is any more going on any time soon. Maybe there is one coming up, somewhere near you?
OK... I have to save this thread for TONIGHT. Looks to be a juicy one!!
"It's not the years, it's the mileage." - Indiana Jones
I was such a geeky unexciting teen... though my friend and I used to ride up to the chichi golf course & walk our horses right up to the green where the water fountain was.
On Ouzo... I DID drink a Greek guy under the table once! And that was even after I'd had a bunch of shots of Jameson....
Oh, one time I was out spelunking with these guys, and on the way back to the car we were on the shared trail, and this group of DDRRUNK folks came riding up, and shared some rotgut with us. We looked pretty rough after a day scooting around in the Indiana mud....
There was this one black dude on a green restless horse, so he broke away, went barrelling up over the hill, and eventually came galloping back again.
He said "Massah! Massah! Injuns on de nex' ridge!"
That was one of the most hilarious politically incorrect moments EVAR.
CnJ -
I forwarded the grant info to 2 groups I work with. I know one of them for sure was going to see if they could get something through it but I don't know what happened. I'll have to ask! Both groups are always working with a combination of assorted grants and matching funding sources and also sorts of complicated wranglings that are beyond my energy or abilities (I hate paperwork) to try and accomplish stuff.
On driving - One thing I won't do is get into before I have a chance to work with some experienced folks for a while. Which hasn't happened with kids/farm/husband, at this point in my life. In 2 or 3 years would be good. I would like to be able to have a team that I could use to do a lot of my field work that they would lend themselves too - like harrowing, discing, maybe some plowing. Hauling some wagons with squash on occasion. That sorta thing. But I'm not going to do it unless I can really commit to it.
Already I've started to realize that I would like a few more lifetimes to do all the things I would like to do!
PF- On the webpage in the link, up towards the right there is a calendar. Happ's has a CDE coming up shortly, but their website and contact info is listed. Maybe there are some folks in your area who would come plow and disc your fields, while teaching you how to do it? Maybe that could be their 'payment' towards the Co-Op you guys have going? Just tossing out some thoughts.
And yeah, I need a few more lifetimes too. To catch up to some of the stuff from this one! LOL!
SFTS- about the 'training aids', and I'm not trying to stir shit again either, just discuss and share so others can ponder, comment and learn.
I will break this up to discuss each piece of equipment and its use and to keep it from getting too confusing. I totally agree that *how* every piece of equipment is adjusted makes the difference between it being effective or not, but also the difference of creating more problems to deal with later on.
As far as the IB gelding, did you miss where I said several trainers had worked with him trying different things? He got the best of more than one person and pro. I’ll send you a pic of him. You’d like him as he is well bred and just gorgeous. He was just a prick about a lot of things, but he taught me a lot over the few years that I owned him.
________________________
Standing Martingales-
While top level jumpers do use these- their main concern is not to attain 'pretty'. They get around the course, over the jumps and the rider stays on. Period.
Some of the upper level jumpers also use bits that you and I wouldn't even consider buying. Agreed? We may both also agree to the theory of "Why ride the horse, if you have to use that to control him? What happened to training?"
But those two things show the difference in how those trainers go about training, and how some of the rest of us do things. Their goals are different and the equipment commonly used in their sport is too.
As far as using them on a ‘giraffe’, my jumper mare used to raise her head (putting it in your lap it seemed) as she braced against the bit, hollowed her back and sped up, as soon as ANY contact was made. Did I mention she had bridle issues when we got her? To get her head down where it belonged we used a French link snaffle and one rein at a time, low and wide, along with leg aids and plenty of circles- big and small, to soften her body at the walk.
She needed to re-learn that contact *could* be soft and following and even when it wasn’t, she wasn’t going to get ‘bopped’ in the mouth. As things progressed so did the gait we worked in until w/t/c was soft, sensible, sane and consistent. Stopping was sit down, stop riding and a quiet, relaxing 'whoa'. No contact with the reins, just sit down and quit riding. She's also in her late teens, taller than I am and was showing over courses of 3'9" and schooling 4'.
As far as using a martingale on a horse for the first few rides- there again, the less there is for horse, rider and header to get caught up or tangled in if it should all go wrong... the happier I am about the process.
Running Martingales-
What you are calling the "English version" of a running martingale is pretty much one and the same as a western running martingale and what the backstretch folks on the racetracks call 'a set of rings'. When you look at how they work, it's all the same thing. The only exception would be the 'cowboy running martingale', where the rings do not engage or disengage independently. When adjusted correctly the RM does not interfere with the straight line from the riders elbow to the bit.
However, this straight line can change its degree of 'level' when the horse raises its head or even carrying it in a natural position for a different discipline. The hunter with its head up, nose slightly ahead of the vertical and the bit to elbow line pretty much level is considered correct for the discipline. The horse can be balanced in self carriage in this position. The western horses head will be slightly lower, poll even with the withers, depending on breed the nose will be on or behind the vertical for Arabs, or slightly ahead for the stock breeds. The bit to elbow line can still be straight, but it will be at an angle of up to 30 +/- degrees in some cases. The English or Saddle Seat horse and rider may have a slightly uphill angle in the bit to elbow line and the horses' nose is slightly ahead to slightly behind the vertical. Adjustment of the RM in any of these three cases is important, but when the head comes up out of its natural position for the discipline, the RM engages and pressure on the bit pulls down.
When the RM is removed- say for showing- as the head comes up out of position, the pressure on the bit from the reins comes from straight back. Now the horse is getting mixed signals. IBG figured this out pretty quick and used it to entertain himself at my expense. At least I was only 18, still learning a lot and still bounced when I hit the ground. That was plenty of years ago.
Conditioning?
My favorite method: Trotting hills. If the ground's not too hard of course.
If you can do the whole ride in 2-point, then you get bonus points.
Damn. I was fit then....
Didn't read through all the comments... but the stupidest thing I've ever done on a horse was..
.. and yes, I was a young, fearless teenager, who rode all over the farm bareback, no helmet (no one thought about head protection then), with a halter and leadrope, and barefoot (me) all the time, with no supervision...
... but, that doesn't excuse the stupidity of doing all the above.. AND practicing jumping over BARBED WIRE FENCES. Yes, barebacked, barefoot, bareheaded and no bridle...
... there is a saying "The Lord looks over fools and drunks". This muct be true as my mare nor I were ever injured from this.
Cut-N-Jump wrote:
windingwinds said...
PF-driving should come with a warning, cause it's addictive! :)
It sure is! But it can also be far more dangerous. Remember, the only aids you have are reins, voice and whip. There is also this thing behind the horse- strapped and fastened on. When things go south and a driving horse panics, the cart goes with them with or without you. It can be a pretty hairy experience until everything comes to a complete stop. Been there once or twice...
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This is so very true. Many years ago as a kid I used to drive the neighbor's little POA gelding all over without a care. He was a sweet, solid, smart little pony. Until the day something spooked him, fortunately I was NOT in the "driver's seat", and he bolted, destroying the harness, the cart, and injuring the driver (his owner). No one ever knew what set him off. I thanked my lucky stars that I wasn't the one holding the reins, at age 9-10 or so.
I've seen a number of pretty scary driving wrecks. That's what sent Jim Lowe to the hospital from Scottsdale some years ago, a driving "mishap". It's fun when all goes well. It's decidedly NOT fun when it doesn't........
Cut-N-Jump wrote:
SFTS- about the 'training aids', and I'm not trying to stir shit again either, just discuss and share so others can ponder, comment and learn.
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I really don't think this needs to be rehashed, over and over, and it's clear we are not going to agree, but here goes.
No, I didn't miss what you said about your gelding, CnJ. We've probably ALL had those horses at one time or another in our lives. Yes, they usually do teach a great deal.
It seems to me you are trying to prove something, and that's fine. But please don't go attempting to drag me into the mud with you, because you have an issue about my delivery or somesuch. We can ALWAYS talk about these things in email, I welcome honest debate on training issues in order to come to an understanding. It doesn't have to get ugly, and there is no need to make a spectacle on a public forum. No one has to always agree on everything, every time. And simply because we disagree, does not make you right and me wrong, any more that it makes me automatically always right and you always wrong. I don't see it in black and white ~ and I don't believe much is accomplished when we do. Just like a first few rides in a well adjusted running martingale. You don't do that. I do. I'm just as happy with my results (as are my clients) as you are with yours. There is nothing to "get tangled up in" if it's done properly, in a controlled (well, as much as possible) environment and with a skilled and realiable header. I've yet to have a problem in 30 years of starting horses under saddle.
On standing martingales, I have one. I've used it once, on a huge TB jumper gelding who needed one for safety's sake, because he had a nasty habit of flinging his head in the air, HARD. I tried a running martingale on this horse for some time, however he pulled SO strongly (ingrained behavior from years gone by) that he'd force more pressure on his mouth than I wanted to see, and in turn it would freak him out. When I used the standing attachment, voila, problem solved. It had _NOTHING_ to do with "pretty". He was a Jumper, not a Hunter.
You are correct about some folks using bits I wouldn't ever consider, and that goes for a lot of folks and not just the upper level jumper riders. I do disagree that your point illustrates a difference in training methods as much as it does a difference in the equipment used to get there, if that makes sense. There's a lot of equipment common to the stock horse world I dislike as well, the correction bits, the tom thumbs, the huge spurs and on and on.
It DOES take time to train a horse correctly. Too many people want the fastest return, at the expense of the horse. I have lost more than one client because I refuse to push my horses too hard, too fast, get "quickie" results and a forced, false framed horse. Real, true contact seems to be sadly missing with too many folks, in too many ways. It takes work, as you have said. It doesn't happen overnight.
On running martingales, I disagree wholeheartedly as well, with the dissertation in regard to the differences (or, in your opinion, the lack thereof). Personally, I have found that the "Western" version or the "training fork" tends to annoy the horse by that sliding action. I know many people use them. I don't like them. They're also, in my experience, more difficult to correctly adjust for the horse. Again, this is just MY opinion from MY experience. We are each entitled to our own, are we not?
You did a fairly decent job of outlining the differences in "desired headsets" for the various breeds and disciplines, but my main problem with all that is the fact that we have to have SO MUCH emphasis on headset in the first place, often forsaking real collection. As I stated earlier, my [main] reason for using a martingale is for safety purposes, NOT to gain a false "headset". This is the sort of trouble caused, and what we get when we make unfounded assumptions about folks.
Are we finished with this now? ;)
cattypex wrote:
Conditioning?
My favorite method: Trotting hills. If the ground's not too hard of course.
If you can do the whole ride in 2-point, then you get bonus points.
Damn. I was fit then....
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Hills are great! But I actually prefer walking up and down the hills, and trotting on the flat (both posting and a real two-point). Best conditioning EVAR for humans, too. ;)
As a side topic, ever notice how few riders (and trainers) know what a REAL two-point is? Sigh.
CNJ said
"Standing Martingales-
While top level jumpers do use these-"...
No, they do not, CNJ. Not allowed in jumper classes.
Hunters, yes.
just sayin'.
(runs and hides behind CattyPex)
GL
Why are you hiding behind Cattypex?
GL- you can come out of hiding. Don't know why you are anyways?
In some of the televised competitions, (the few that make it to the airwaves) I have seen standing martingales on a horse or two. If it isn't allowed, nobody is mentioning DQ's. Instead they are posting times and discussing a 'hard rub on the second rail of the oxer'...
I would think, or maybe hope:
a) if they are showing that level, wouldn't they know the rules? and
b) if it isn't allowed, why isn't anyone saying so? Spare them the embarrassment of being 'outed' on TV maybe? Can you imagine? Whooo Boy!
SFTS- Since when is healthy discussion, considered dragging into the mud?
I described head position in relation to the equipment and it's adjustment, as your words conveyed the thought that you didn't think I knew how things are supposed to fit. And yet you speak of others making assumptions about you and your methods? I think it's fair not to make the same assumptions.
GoLightly wrote:
CNJ said
"Standing Martingales-
While top level jumpers do use these-"...
No, they do not, CNJ. Not allowed in jumper classes.
Hunters, yes.
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Not totally 100% accurate. They are allowed in Jumpers, but only in certain classes.
Here's the wording from the USEF 2009 rule book:
"JP111 Tack and Attire.
1. Martingales.
a. Classes offering less than $1000—No martingale restrictions.
b. Classes offering $1000 to $4999—Only standing or running martingales used in the conventional manner are permitted.
c. Classes offering $5000 or more (and all classes restricted to young horses)—Only running martingales used in the conventional manner are permitted."
Hell, even draw reins are allowed, in competition for Jumpers in certain classes:
"JP111 Tack and Attire.
3. Draw Reins.
Draw reins may only be used when schooling or in classes with less than $1000."
Hunter rule:
"HU124 Tack.
3. Martingales of any type are prohibited in Under Saddle, hack and tie-breaking classes. Standing martingales are allowed for all over fence classes. All other martingales may be considered unconventional."
Cut-N-Jump wrote:
In some of the televised competitions, (the few that make it to the airwaves) I have seen standing martingales on a horse or two. If it isn't allowed, nobody is mentioning DQ's. Instead they are posting times and discussing a 'hard rub on the second rail of the oxer'...
I would think, or maybe hope:
a) if they are showing that level, wouldn't they know the rules? and
b) if it isn't allowed, why isn't anyone saying so? Spare them the embarrassment of being 'outed' on TV maybe? Can you imagine? Whooo Boy!
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More likely than not, the commentators aren't really up on the rules, or at least they're not necessarily paying attention. Not sure who's doing Jumping commentary these days, because I haven't seen Jumping on TV in a long while (didn't even watch any during the Olympics!). But if it's a big money GP (which are usually the only ones which get televised, as we all know), there would definitely be rules broken for using a traditional standing martingale. They are allowed at the lower levels of Jumpers.
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