Friday, September 17, 2010

Lopin Lazy Eights

Recently as you all know by reading CNJ's blog The Well Groomed Horse, we took little Kit Kat who thinks he's big Kit Kat to a local show. For what it was an for the fact that he had not been to a show in some time I felt he did well. And I was proud of how CNJ handled him.

That being said, this particular post is not really about the show, though I will be referring to something I saw that really made me realize what is wrong with the horse industry.

As we were waiting for CNJ to go into her class, I was was watching a local Arab trainer who we will call Ralph( as much as I want to out the bastard, I feel that it is best that I do not). While he was schooling his western horse, and I wish I had a video of it, the worthless idiot never stopped jerking on the poor horse. He was riding the horse in a set of Romel reins and could not keep his hand still. Personally, I was ready to call 911 because I thought Ralph was having a seizure.HE would jerk the reins up always bumping that curb bit,then he would jerk his hands to the sides. All the while he was berating a client in the warm up ring because she warm up ring. Perhaps SFTS can come on here or other Arab showman can comeon here and explain to us the constant jerking and bumping as I would love to know what that is all about. I have shown many a horse in romel reins and never did that.

Here is my point.

How many of you have gone to a schooling show to use it as just that?

To school your horse.

How many of you have gone to a show knowing that your horse is not really ready, yet you just want to get him/her exposed to the outside world?

We do it all of the time.

We know that if we are taking a horse to show, and they are not ready and they place, sometimes it is a gift. And we graciously accept that gift.

After reading some of the comments on CNJ's blog, I have something that I want to say about how we handle the shows and have handled them for many years. And this is how we do it with the youngsters and mares and stallions alike.

Now it should be obvious that the shows are different from being at home. Though we want our horses to act as they do at home while they are at the show, we prefer not to get after them too much. Especially the stallions as we know that when we take a stallion to a show on Wednesday,their brains wont arrive until Friday.

We also know that when we take a horse to a show and they are not ready, then they are not ready. All the jerking on them and getting after them will not make them ready, in fact, that will only exacerbate any problems that you ma have.

If you take your horse into the warm up, get on him and he is not picking up the lead and you keep getting after him about it, he will not pick it up. But if you just stop the horse and wait a few minutes, then try again, the horse will more than likely pick up the lead. How do I know this?

I do it all of the time. Slow and easy.

If you want the horse to act the same at the show as he does at home, then you need to give him the chance to make a few adjustments on his own. Allow him to settle as there are a lot of distractions.

My favorite thing to do is to take a horse into the warm up and lunge him before I get on him, so he can work out his inner demons on his own.I do not bit them up,I just want them to relax. Then when I get on him, I like to do the same things that we do at home,some softening exercises at the walk and jog. Then I like to lope lazy eights on a loose rein, slow figure eights, sometimes I do flying changes, sometimes I do simple changes. If the horse starts to cut into the circle or speed up, then I will stop wait a few seconds and start all over. This way I am changing the horses habits, and allowing him to be corrected without a lot of fuss. Letting him work with his head down, and relaxed.


The simple truth is, that I will not be able to effectively take horse that is not trained or ready for the show, and get him fully trained for the show the week of.It just wont happen!

So why did I bring Ralph into this?

Because the horse from what I understand is a seasoned show horse, and yet Ralph is still having to "Yank,crank spur and spank" this poor horse into the ring. A seasoned horse should have been relaxed and ready to do his job,without all of the help from the trainer. It's funny, I felt that the trainer was just trying to show off at the horses expense.

If you want your horse to be relaxed and do his job at a show, then let him enjoy it so you can too!

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love to win, but I want my horse to enjoy his job. We will have bad days at the shows, but if I allow my horses to learn to relax at the shows, then my job is a whole lot easier and their minds are clear as they enter the ring to do their jobs.

45 comments:

kestrel said...

I've rehabbed some show and omoksee horses that were so d*mned terrified of the showring that they would panic at the sight of an arena. What part of 'if you beat your horse up at shows or events it will hate shows or events' do people not understand!!!????

Rehab...do the conditioning work out trail riding, in a field, on the lawn. Take horse into arena. Feed a treat, loosen cinch, hang out. Progress to sloooooowwww arena work. Pretty soon horse likes arena. Rocket science...


Annnd first!

JohnieRotten said...

Kestrel
I too have done a lot of rehabs. And some people do make it into a rocket science project.

It's a funny thing, I wanted to turn this blog into revealing all of the secrets of what really happens in the training pen. And there aren't a whole lot of secrets. Just common sense.

It's like I told a client years ago. If you learn to do the brakes on your car, that does not make you a mechanic. It just shows you have some,fundamental mechanical ability. But you need to developed that ability.

Same goes for horses. Learn the basics and keep an open mind.

TBDancer said...

I feel the same way about coaches on the rail at shows, giving what amounts to a LESSON to their student in the ring when they really should be preparing student and horse for their ride. It's hard to concentrate on your OWN warmup pattern if you've got someone yammering all the time.

The time to school is at home. The time to "be at the show" is NOT the time to school.

As for Ralph and his ilk, all their yanking and cranking shows everyone is, they are terrible trainers.

JohnieRotten said...

I would like to know what you all do for warm ups.

I agree TB Dancer. It does show a lack of talent on the trainers end. What bothers me is that this is what they are teaching their clients.

JohnieRotten said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
kestrel said...

I just try to get my students and/or horse to relax and have fun with it, in a businesslike fashion, and remind them that they have all the pieces of the puzzle. The ring is the place to put the puzzle together into a pretty picture. Never ever ever attempt a new thing in the warmup ring. Do the things that are dead solid. Only!!!!! New things are for practicing at home.

The difference in a nutshell...one of my students showed a couple of weeks ago. Warmup ring, reminders were to enjoy the flight and concentrate on it. Reminded them of the stuff they already know. She won. Second day, other instructor yelled instructions, tried to get them to collect more, straighten more, everything more. She lost.

kestrel said...

Good to have ya back JR!

fernvalley01 said...

K, first of all can you and the missus just fly up here next summer and keep me from falling on my face? I took my "Cat" to 2 local shows just for experience, didn't expect much and was happy we didn't look like complete lunatards out there , next year ,she and Phoenix need to hit the breed shows.

fernvalley01 said...

Also as I said on CNJ's blog ,I much prefer the way she presented her horse to all the diinking around that was going on with the others , but I don't understand Arab presentation.I was at stock horse shows , and I gotta say all the yanking and snapping of leads just prior to thegate was certainly eye opening . I was just standing there talking to Cat , trying to keep us both settled and calm

CharlesCityCat said...

JR, also glad to see you back.

I thought CNJ looked pretty darn good, she handled everything quite well.

I couldn't agree more with your post and I wish more trainers and riders would work this way. Seen way too many things that are destined to cause problems on down the road. Give a horse a reason to be upset at a show or any other type of venue and that horse will remember it.

cattypex said...

Trainers and teenagers like to have "busy hands" because it makes them look and feel like they are DOING something, and I believe they feel like they're impressing SOMEone.

Really, it's weird, because a Western horse should be SO relaxed and SO easy. All the yanky jerkey spurring & seesawing is a bunch of baloney.

A lot of the best Western Pleasure horses I've seen are merely "too lazy" for other stuff, and their riders really capitalize on it!

JohnieRotten said...

Thanks everyone. It's good to be writing a little.

CP
I agree. Trainers like to look like they are doing something.

CCC
Cnj did look good and handled herself professionally.

cattypex said...

Also, there used to be a nice local tack shop/indoor arena near me that had a whole series of "Fuzzy Horse Shows" every winter. You wore your sweater and schooling chaps, and it was FUN, but also got you and your horse some low-stress experience. It was pretty laid-back

It was marketed that way, too, which I think was pretty smart, because no one else in the area was doing it. Plus it got folks into the tack store, which was the biggest in the area at the time, and one of the few that had big Saddleseat and Hunt Seat sections. (Dressage was kind of an obscure niche market at that time.)

SFTS said...

Since you asked... ;)

Pretty much all the yank, spank & jerk "trainers" we see out here across Southern California tend to be those who compete on the Paint and QH circuits, not the Arabian circuit. I'm sure there are some, in fact I've probably seen them at times, but I am entirely unfamiliar with any Arabian trainers (real trainers at least, or those who actually train their horses to carry themselves correctly and do well in the ring) that use such methods ~ and I use that term lightly.

On the coaching, TB Dancer I disagree to an extent, and it all depends on the venue. A schooling show, by design is for schooling and I've got no problem doing more coaching at that level. My students and clients aren't going to need that once they work their way up the show ring ladder if I've done my job. Generally the only exception to that rule will be the very young leadline and walk/trot kids who are out there in a ring full of other horses and riders, sometimes for the first time in larger company.

On your point, JR, about taking a horse to a show when that horse 'isn't really ready'. If it's just to get them exposed to that outside world, and they're being worked on the grounds or even tied to the trailer learning patience and how to handle the show environment, not a big deal. However I'll never, ever allow a horse to be shown that is not absolutely ready for the show ring before classes are ever entered. Our goal in getting into the show ring is to win, there's no point in setting yourself up for defeat.

I want my horses ready to rock'n'roll when they get to a show, they need to know their jobs inside out and be prepared to go to work. That doesn't mean we won't do schooling shows as a precursor to larger shows, I've used them as a stepping stone for both horses and riders/handlers for many years. But the horses should be ready to step into the ring at a horse show before they ever get onto that trailer headed for the showgrounds.

My warmup for a horse at a show will all depend on the horse, his level of training, his level of experience in the show ring (veteran campaigner versus total greenie, etc) and a multitude of other criteria. I like to let the horse decide what he/she needs.

JohnieRotten said...

SFTS

As to my point. I am referring to schooling shows. Our horses only step into the ring when they are ready. They are exposed in the beginning to the goings on of the show before they go in. I have audited(did not take a number so I wasn't judged) many classes just so when we actually do show we have chance. Thats is done for all of our hor ses. And guess what, I never had a problem. My horses are always consistantly placing in the top three. I have never gone below low that as a pro. And that is showing over 30 years. I have won buckles just because I.was consistent in my placing throughout the buckle series. But to get that horse to be consistent I had to have a good solid training foundation. And I got that by exposing my horses.

As to your claim that they only have the yank and jerk training methods in the paint and QH circuits. You are totally wrong. I will admit that the QH people do it too though. I have a lot of videof the warm-up ring at the Scittsdale show where the trainers are yankin and spanking the horses. And that is while they are standing in the center of the warm-up ring. Then when they start moving they just start jerking faster. That is at the Scottsdale
Show. So you need to rethink the whole infallible Arabian Horse thing. They are as bad as every other breed. The training methods are similar. There Re thise that refuse to use those methods. Me being one of those trainers.

SFTS said...

Some things never change, eh?

You mentioned me by name, asking for my opinion I presume. I have my opinion and offered it based on what I actually see on the showgrounds and in the show ring. What we see out here in So Cal may be different than what you see in Arizona. I'd venture to guess we're not seeing the same trainers at the shows.

Then, I based some of my comments on what you actually wrote, JR.

You wrote:

"How many of you have gone to a show knowing that your horse is not really ready, yet you just want to get him/her exposed to the outside world?

We do it all of the time.

We know that if we are taking a horse to show, and they are not ready and they place, sometimes it is a gift. And we graciously accept that gift.
"

To that, I expressed my disagreement with taking horses to shows when they are not ready, which in your own words you claimed to do all the time.

JohnieRotten said...

Oh dear....... I am busted Damn it

But to that I was referring to schooling shows. But the real topic of today lesson is spur and jerk yank and spank. At any show.

But you do love an argument. Perhaps that comes from ............. well never mind.

But yes we do take young horses to shows so that we may when the aren't ready. But they are there to get exposed. That's it.

Bottom line SFTS. We don't yank and crank for a show.

SFTS said...

Why is it you're looking for a fight, JR? You mentioned me by name, obviously inferring...something. I get it that you're not fond of me without knowing a thing about me. So maybe it's time for you to let it go?

On topic, I was referring to schooling shows as well. We don't take horses even to little schooling shows without them being ready to be shown, period. But whatever works for you and yours.

BTW, here we don't ever spur, jerk, yank, spank or crank...ever. At home or at a show. It's simply not productive in training horses.

JohnieRotten said...

Never said I was looking for a fight. Just stating fact.

JohnieRotten said...

But I know you seem to love to argue. Do have at it.

JohnieRotten said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
fernvalley01 said...

Little lost here, I don't see where JR is looking for a fight. But Oh well,.I was surprised even at the little shows I attended this year , how many people were yanking on the chain of the halter horse , to jack them up, then , longeing the sh*t out of them to "settle them down" the waiting area just outside the show ring itself was a world class flustercluck. I wound up taking , my sweet little dolly as far away from the action as I could and just stood with her ,talking and keeping her calm. Figured if I already had the whoa. The trainwreck at the gate would give me the "go"

cattypex said...

There is a nice family who boards at my barn. The daughter was just messing around with her horse one hot day and was doing showmanship without a halter, just for fun. Wow - what a team! You could tell that the horse was really having a stress-free time, and the girl was making up patterns all over. Such a nice change from the shank yank stuff you usually see.
I know that sometimes cutters & reiners show w/o bridles sometimes, to show off or just for the helluvit, but does anyone ever do naked showmanship?
The horse, not the kid......
That's a nice level of "finish"!

kestrel said...

Well, I must be going to the wrong shows, or barns...I luvs my Arabs and I sure see them getting abused a lot. Not by all, there is one really big name Arab barn here that does a fabulous job, but their trainer is appalled at the nonsense she has to train into the horses to keep them competitive. There's another big name barn that has a bunch of mind blown horses that are dangerous. If you lift a hand they literally fall down.

I like the idea of 'naked showmanship' Catty! You'd have to take a long time with a class though, to make sure it was just one horse at a time. Otherwise the train wrecks would be spectacular...I'm thinking of a PP clinic I attended where everyone was milling around without halters and a young stud decided to mount a mare...soooo not pretty!

horsemom said...

the crank and spur is pretty much all I see in my little horse world outside of the barn I ride at. Twisted curb chains, chin to chest and pulled to the side while loping (how they even do this and what the rider is trying to accomplish is beyond me!) but sadly they win.
I don't get it.

cattypex said...

OK, I did a quick Google search of .

This horse is really nice, with some great breeding as far as my inexperienced eyes can tell.

BUT.... no.

http://doublekarabians.com/shak.html

He is overbent - look how low his poll is!!!! The poll should be the HIGHEST POINT. Did he lose a contact lens down there?

I found photo after photo like this.
http://www.arabian-select.com/Sales/embryos-in-utero-foals.html
Both horses shown here under western tack are just pathetic.

Proper training techniques will NOT produce results like these.

Hey, look what I randomly found:
http://www.horsemagazine.com/ARTICLES/P/Petushkova,%20Elena/World%20Dressage%20Champion.html

This is more like it:
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h81/Valsmanypals/Carinosa.jpg
that guy's got a wicked chair seat though!

GoLightly said...

I'm just here to say hello:)
Really!

cattypex said...

Hi GL! :-)

GoLightly said...

I think we're going to have to put JR and SFTS in separate chairs, on opposite sides of the room.
Honestly, you two..
JR, I do NOT think SFTS was looking for a fight. Really!

I may have to have a little red-headed tantrum, and y'all know how bad that can get.
(especially cause I know how to bold text now)

Hiya Catty!

JohnieRotten said...

Hi GL

I never though she was looking for a fight, I have no desire to argue with her. Just asked for her opinion, she gave it and I responded.

Please no red headed tantrums!

JohnieRotten said...

CP

I agree that the first horse is way over flexed but I can not get the last other pics to load

cattypex said...

JR: Those links don't show all the way.... but if you triple click 'em and then right click then tell to open, should work.....

Oh heck
Random Pretty Dressage of 1980s Russian rider:
http://tinyurl.com/qufea4

Old school Arab Western Pleasure mare with chair seat cowboy:
http://tinyurl.com/2ealre6

Overbent and overridden horses from some pfine pfolks pselling Magnum Psyche embryos (which creeeeeeps me out):
http://tinyurl.com/2vdfuob

Anyway..... somewhat on topic....
It's always fun to see horses who KNOW they're at a show, and really have fun showing off, but back at the barn they're just goofballs.

"Never ever ever attempt a new thing in the warmup ring." Yeah, I've done that.... it NEVER works!!!!

SFTS said...

Yes, in at least one of the pictures of El Shekinah Gold+++/ he's BTV. Unfortunately, that's much too common in the Arabian show ring for WP horses and sadly it is what wins today. But the horse is outstanding and a nice representative of the Arabian Western Pleasure horse.

I also have no issue with the pictures of Pashahnata and her Magnum Psyche daughter. I think they're lovely, lovely horses and although I dislike the severe BTV that's so popular in today's show ring, as well as the intimidated look that comes with it, a majority of horses do not look like the extremes when they're actually in the show ring.

It is easy to criticize when you prefer how a horse looked in the show ring from the 1950's/1960's and horses like the Australian Stock Horses pictured here some time back ~ those of us who are involved in the breed and show these horses have our own preference for how our horses look. Just as I am no fan of stock breed WP horses or their look and carriage.

Pathetic? Hardly. Perhaps just not your cup of tea. Simply the same as me not liking your idea of the "ideal Western Pleasure horse". To each his or her own. :)

Personally, I STRONGLY disagree that an Arabian Western Pleasure horse's highest point should be the poll ~ one of the characteristics of the Arabian breed is the arched neck. If you look at the natural carriage of the Arabian horse, you will see that arch and rarely will the poll be the highest point, even in an Arabian horse at liberty.

The term 'proper training techniques' is entirely relative. What would be considered proper training for a high level Dressage horse would be pointless in a Western Pleasure horse, and what is considered proper training for a Western Pleasure horse would be pointless in a Reiner, and so forth.

***

No GL, you're right. *I* wasn't looking for a fight at all. I was just answering a question. :)

cattypex said...

Of course that begs the question, ARE there some universal good training techniques? I tend to think that yes, there are a few.

Western style riding, particularly as practiced in the Arab arena, is a direct descendent of classical dressage, brought to Old California by Spaniards. Just as modern competitive dressage has perverted many classical principles, so has modern Western riding.

As for the poll thing, Deb Bennett had a recent thought provoking article in Equus about how fake collection and such in many disciplines has caused the horse's neck to "break" in the wrong place, whereas any horse exhibiting true self carriage - whether he's a hunter, reiner, endurance horse, saddle seat horse, pleasure or even dressage horse - will "break" at the third vertebrae: the poll.
Oddly, I've read George Morris saying the same thing, among others.
BTV is just dumb in any discipline. I have no idea why It's desirable, because like the stock horse headset, It's functionally indefensible.
Nice horses are still nice horses, no matter how they're messed up by dumb fashions, so let's hope the pendulum swings back to common sense. But I fear that too many generations of influential people have been brainwashed into thinking it's "correct" or "beautiful."

SFTS said...

Oh sure there are some "universal training techniques" CP, especially at the beginning of a horse's training. But I think you are confusing traditional vaquero-type Western horses with what you think we should see today in the show ring. Totally, entirely different animals.

Pretty much everything having to with horses in a competitive fashion has in some way become perverted. Take a look at Cutting horses. If you've watched NCHA futurity horses over the past couple of years and compared them to horses working cattle on the range...they bear no resemblance to each other.

One problem with the term "self carriage" is that if you take 50 different horsemen or trainers and ask them what their own interpretation of the term is, you'll likely get 50 different answers. But I think of the issue with breaking at the poll versus self carriage versus what wins in the show ring versus BTV versus peanut rollers (and on and on and on) to be a frivolous argument.

We all like what we like, and if we're not using force, pain or any other kind of abuse to achieve it, I really have little problem with it, even if I am not fond of what it looks like. And saying that folks are "brainwashed into thinking" certain things are correct and beautiful is sort a specious argument. After 40 years of watching the show ring evolve, I think I have a pretty good idea of what I personally think is correct and beautiful, and I can guarantee you it wasn't because anyone brainwashed me into thinking that. ;)

RabidGoose said...

SFTS

You didn't come on here to fight?

Seems like you did. Maybe JR asked you a question or maybe it was to anyone in the Arabian horse industry.

You also make comments about the cutting horses trying to bait JR.

He may not go there. But I will.

1) The horse show world and the real world are two very different things. The pleasure horses to which you seem to be partial to are derived from horses that were ridden down the trail to grandmas house on Sunday afternoon. The riders preferred that they did not have headset but walked with their heads down and relaxed. They did not lope from one destination to the other for fear that they would destroy the horses or wear them out.

2) No Kidding. The NCHA horses are different from the horses that work on the range. Really?
Gee never would have guessed that. Of course they are different, like the pleasure horses they were adapted to the show ring .

I have been showing both pleasure horses and cutting and working cow horses since I was a little girl. That was 60 years ago, and while things have changed, you see the worst perversion of training techniques in the Arab and pleasure industries of any breed.

The difference between you and someone like JR, is that JR does not live in a fantasy world.

SFTS said...

Imagine that, another anonymous new screen name with no profile wanting to attack me. Shocking. Yet so not worth my time.

Cattypex, I welcome a discussion with you any time. :) It is a pleasure.

cattypex said...

At any rate, I think mainly our current argument stems from 2 different approaches:

1)SFTS is talking about what she sees winning in the show ring, and she likes it. Or is at least OK with it, and her business is based on going along with it.

2) I am coming from a broad philosophical argument. I always do, I always will. It's how I'm made. As someone who isn't showing, and has never shown very seriously, and horseless for 20 years, I've used that time to study and think about _why_ and _how_, which is much easier when you're not in the throes of the showing world.

You know the old parable about the frog in the bowl of water, and you sloooowly warm it up while he gets used to it, and then suddenly it's boiling and it's too late for him to escape? I tend to think that modern showing - yes, especially the pleasure industry in every single breed - has gone through this. Show ring hunters aren't exactly field-ready, show ring trail horses are merely pleasure horses with extra skills, and dressage horses in battle? puh-leeeez!!!!!

"One problem with the term "self carriage" is that if you take 50 different horsemen or trainers and ask them what their own interpretation of the term is, you'll likely get 50 different answers. But I think of the issue with breaking at the poll versus self carriage versus what wins in the show ring versus BTV versus peanut rollers (and on and on and on) to be a frivolous argument."

Actually, I believe it's a ROOT argument. So-called vaquero riding (which is neat) is merely a closer descendent to dressage than the other Western disciplines. Hello, the curb bit? The desire for an obedient horse who requires very subtle commands?

But true "self-carriage" is a pretty universal concept. Dude, even the kids book Happy Horsemanship has a drawing of a pony with a motor in its butt. Lightness on the forehand is supposedly desired in all disciplines, from jumping to saddleseat, but true lightness vs. PERCEIVED lightness - there's the rub.

Anyway, I will stand by what I say about the horse "breaking" at the poll vs. the snaky neck nose tucked thing that Arabs do today in Western and non-sporthorse hunt seat/dressage. You look at where the base of the neck is, there's where your elevation - or lowering - should come from.

The neck is a dynamic part of a horse's anatomy, helping him balance as he moves. Any horse with its head or neck frozen into a "desirable" position (aka headset) isn't using his body to its full potential, and will develop problems later on.

RabidGoose said...

CP

Agree with you CP. My point is that if you want to talk about NCHA horses versus range work. They are clearly two different two different types of work. Most of those range horses could but along with doing their regular work. Cutting was just another facet of the qoek that the cowboys did. My beef with SFTS is thar she really has no clue as to what she is talking about. Especially when income to cow horses.

As far as dressage in the western world. There are quite a few trainers that use basic dressage technique in training the western horse. I even remember JR saying he uses basic dressage to train his horses but he is not a dressage trainer.

What we see in the US is a mixture of riding style from the old cowboys that came from Germany Spain France England etc. The training technique varied as well.

SFTS said...

CP, I don't necessarily think it's different approaches so much as merely different opinions and different likes.

However I think you're confusing what my position and perspective is. :) There is MUCH I dislike about what is winning in Arabian Western Pleasure classes at the higher levels these days. I have said over and over I can't stand the intimidated BTV look with that huge draped rein. However I do generally appreciate the look of a soft, relaxed and good moving Arabian WP horse who carries himself as an Arabian should (arched neck, high tail carriage, etc). Yes, it is "my world" for what it's worth and my opinion is largely based on the fact that I have been in that world for more than 40 years.

When someone approaches this sort of discussion as an "us versus them" type of thing, I tend to disagree strongly. We all have personal tastes, we all have different perspectives. As much as I dislike some things about the show ring, I also love a great deal about showing and the competition of the show ring and I can appreciate the fact that some people aren't a fan of the show ring. Just as I am no fan the type of movement and carriage of stock breed pleasure horses.

Probably where I run into an issue with your posts, CP, is that you come at these discussions with a position of absolutes. Your opinion is just that, an opinion. I respect that and you are of course entitled to it. However, as much as I agree with you on some things, I'll disagree about others and your opinion differs in many ways from my own. We each have our own experiences, knowledge and perspectives. Neither is technically "wrong". Just different.

RabidGoose said...

SFTS

By the way cutting was not range work. It excused in the feed lots as a method to sort cattle.

Know your subject.

SFTS said...

Let me get this straight, anonymous attacker ~ you think a horse that's competitive at the highest levels of the NCHA would last all day long riding the range working cattle? Interesting.

I did have to LOL about your agreement with CP's point of view even when it directly contradicts your own views as expressed, solely for the sake of attacking me. Incredibly transparent, but whatever. ;)

RabidGoose said...

SFTS

Unfortunately like it has been stated so eloquently by some. It's not always about you.

Should you want to discuss things like an adult and not a temperamental child I would be happy to continue.

But I will say this. Do not comment on that of which you know nothing.

cattypex said...

I will stand by what I say.

I remember several different Arabians folks in my area who, in the early 80s, owned past and present regional champions in various disciplines, Western Pleasure included.

I do remember seeing my favorite local stallion often, and whether he was on the trail or in the ring, he collected himself like a coiled spring, arched his neck, raised his tail and just sloooowly FLOATED. His owner never touched his mouth, and in fact I think she mainly rode bitless when he started his second career as an endurance horse at age 17 (and won Best Conditioned his first time out).

I look at videos of current Arabian WP classes, and those horses are way on their forehands, almost 4-beating at the canter, and looking down as if peering at the newspaper over bifocals.

You can like it if you want, or tolerate it if you must, but to the outsider, it looks as silly as the stock horse peanut rollers or in fact rollkur, which it resembles to me.

I can't imagine great training has taken place to get 'em there.

Anyway, you know I WILL go on ad nauseum, and I already have, so peace out while I go get my quiche out of the oven and go party with some grownups.... ;-)

SFTS said...

Really now "Rabid Goose"? Do not assume what I know or do not know. Calling names and acting like anything but an adult does not further your cause. Let's try this again. You identify yourself and give us some background for the basis of your comments, and we'll talk. Otherwise, I'll simply chalk it up as an opportune time for *someone* to create a new anonymous screen name for the sole purpose of mounting an attack, and I'll ignore your juvenile attacks.

CP, I understand that you and I have different perspectives and different opinions, and also that we will never agree in this regard. That's okay. :) The stallion you mention sounds a great deal like a horse I'd appreciate. What you describe in him is pretty much what I like to see in a WP horse, with slight differences based on how far we've come in training techniques, conditioning and so forth

I also agree that much of what we see in today's show ring in the Arabian WP horses is abysmal. I don't really understand why that hasn't come through in my posts over the past year and a half? I've mentioned my feelings about that often. I dislike the severe BTV, intimidated, heavy on the fore and fourbeating horses just as much as anyone.